PCC's (Post Card Companies) are REALLY this bad

[Carolinian]

Pick a geographical location, look up all the timeshare resales for a given period for that location, then look how many of them are from eBay. It will be a tiny fraction. I did that with the Outer Banks as an example, but you could pick anywhere.

89 sold worldwide versus how many total sold worldwide in the same period through all sources? That would be hard to compile, so you have to take a managable segment to make comparisions.

89 timeshares sold between the 14th and 15th on Ebay....That doesn't seem insignificant to me, no where sells more TS's then ebay....Ebay IS the market for Resale...anything else is just tiny and insignificant by comparison

 

[Ridewithme38]

Pick a geographical location, look up all the timeshare resales for a given period for that location, then look how many of them are from eBay. It will be a tiny fraction. I did that with the Outer Banks as an example, but you could pick anywhere.

Should i start with Williamsburg or Orlando? Where would you say the majority come from? 89 sales over about 36hrs seems like alot to me...How would you know by checking deeds how many were sold by Ebay??? Personally i can't think of a single place...or even all other places that i know of combines that sell 89 timeshares over 36hrs...Can you Carolinian?

 

[Carolinian]

Should i start with Williamsburg or Orlando? Where would you say the majority come from? 89 sales over about 36hrs seems like alot to me...How would you know by checking deeds how many were sold by Ebay??? Personally i can't think of a single place...or even all other places that i know of combines that sell 89 timeshares over 36hrs...Can you Carolinian?

If you are talking about a single place worldwide, it is undoubtedly the single biggest, but as a fraction of the overall market, that still adds up to a tiny fraction.

If you want to pick a period, just check all of eBay's completed sales over the prior months (some of the closing companies used on eBay take a while to close) so you can recognize them and compare those with ones coming from other sources. Of course, for me the OBX is much easier since I can recognize the closing attorney used by the local brick and mortar broker and the HOA attorneys which do their deeds.

 

[mstoyanov]

Carolinian,

You are actually arguing against yourself that EBay is insignificant in terms of market share. On one side you argue that before PCC you were able to sell even blue weeks for some dollars but now you can't.
Which is a very strong argument that PCCs do influence the market.
But PCCs sells only on EBay so if they can influence the market and they are not even the only sellers on EBay this means that EBay is a large part of the market for resale weeks and have substantial influence of the overall market.

Also just because you search registers for deeds there is no way to determine how much of the sales were done on EBay or even from PCCs.

I buy quite a lot on EBay (and other places) and 75% of the deeds that I bought from PCCs have absolutely no indication that there is PCC involved. Quite the opposite - in these 75% of all cases the deed is between me and the previous owners (who were asked to sign an empty deed at that time).
Other 25% are easy to track since one party of the transaction is LLC.
On top of that I also sell on EBay and again there is no way to track that these transactions between me and my buyers were done on EBay - since deeds are between me and my buyers not with 3rd party and we even use different closing agents since different buyers prefer different closing agency.
I am almost sure from looking at various registrars (Myrtle Beach and Orange County in FL) that aside from developer sales EBay (and PCCs) is the largest marketplace currently for timeshares.
It may not be the best one to sell since prices are usually lower than what you can get from other sites and longer wait but it is usually the quickest place to sell. I can give you an example - I bough a timeshare here on Tug 2 years ago (prime week at silver crown resort) and I was approximately 25-30th person who contacted my seller (according to him). And even after almost 2 months it was still unsold. The reason why I got it was that I made it clear to the seller that I want it at the price listed and I am ready to start the closing immediately. I could have sold the same week on EBay at that time for more that I paid for about a one week listing (or after one more re-listing since 25-30% of EBay auctions have buyers backing out).

eBay is only a tiny and insignificant part of the whole timeshare resale market. Look at all the transactions, and eBay just isn't that big a part of it.

We have recently had a member post of buying a timeshare that gets 60 points lite from RCI on eBay for $1. Does that mean in your thinking that anything trading in RCI is essentially worthless since 60 is the max on points lite that RCI gives?

Did you ever work eBay over a long period selling HOA or any other timeshare inventory??? I did! I saw first hand what the dumping by the PCC's did to eBay prices. I think that trumps your speculation. Prior to the PCC's showing up, we used to regularly get $200 to $500 for just about any blue week we put up for sale, but we avoided overloading our area by never having more than one week up for auction at a time, and not immediately putting a new one up right after an auction concluded. eBay then was actually bringing more than the local market on blue weeks. At that time about all the HOA's were selling most blue weeks at $100 through the local timeshare specialist broker. When the PCC's arrived in force, all of that changed with eBay.

 

[ronparise]

eBay is only a tiny and insignificant part of the whole timeshare resale market. Look at all the transactions, and eBay just isn't that big a part of it.

We have recently had a member post of buying a timeshare that gets 60 points lite from RCI on eBay for $1. Does that mean in your thinking that anything trading in RCI is essentially worthless since 60 is the max on points lite that RCI gives?

Did you ever work eBay over a long period selling HOA or any other timeshare inventory??? I did! I saw first hand what the dumping by the PCC's did to eBay prices. I think that trumps your speculation. Prior to the PCC's showing up, we used to regularly get $200 to $500 for just about any blue week we put up for sale, but we avoided overloading our area by never having more than one week up for auction at a time, and not immediately putting a new one up right after an auction concluded. eBay then was actually bringing more than the local market on blue weeks. At that time about all the HOA's were selling most blue weeks at $100 through the local timeshare specialist broker. When the PCC's arrived in force, all of that changed with eBay.

I dont doubt that you sold lots of blue weeks for $200-$500. My points are

1) that they were still essentially worthless. At $350 each, 52 timeshare weeks, the equivalent of a whole condo, is only $18000. Unless you are in Southwest Florida where I make my living selling Condos...thats not a whole lot of money...almost worthless

2) The fact that you managed your inventory, by releasing it to the market just a little at a time means what you held back was not generating any income for the association,you may have made a little more on the sale, but you gave up the fee income...sounds like a wash to me, and maybe even poor management

3) that you got $500 for a worthless timeshare only means you took advantage of an unsuspecting buyer....ie you charged too much. making you (in my mind) no different than the ppcs and timeshare salesmen we all love to hate

4)The ppcs didnt kill the market for timeshares. PPCs may have burried it, but it was already dead

 

[ronparise]

We have recently had a member post of buying a timeshare that gets 60 points lite from RCI on eBay for $1. Does that mean in your thinking that anything trading in RCI is essentially worthless since 60 is the max on points lite that RCI gives?

the 60 points you talk about is value, only in relation to the "vacation experience" at this resort at this time relative to the "vacation experience" at other resorts at other times. It has nothing to do with monetary value. For that I would need to know what similar rental properties rent for, and compare it to what the maintenance fees are at your 60 pointer.

For example a 1 bedroom unit at the Manhattan Club takes 96000 RCI points a week. . My 1 bedroom in New Orleans just 20000 points. So I guess you would say the Manhattan Club is worth 5 times as much as my unit.
However I see rentals at the Manhattan club for $250 a night (1750 a week) which is almost exactly the annual maintenance fee for a week. I rent my New Orleans week for $1000, double my mf. So I would say my New Orleans week is worth twice your New York week. (and by the way my week cost me $1 through the TUG marketplace)

 

[vckempson]

I find the discussion of "value" and "worth" fascinating. It's seems that many have a different way of establishing value as to what's important to them. For some, the rental rate vs MF is it. For others, it's the price to get high TPU's. But ultimately, it's the price a willing buyer pays to a willing seller in an arm's length transaction. The sales price is driven exclusively by supply and demand for a particual resort/week. Unfortunately, there's tons on the market and few buyers. Thus we have $1 e-bay sales for most weeks. Everything else is irrelevant.

As a stock broker, I see every day the impact of supply and demand. But that's with an efficient market. The problem with timeshares is that there truly is no efficient market. There are multiple markets and each establishes it's own level of equilibrium between buyer and seller. You have developer sales at 10's of thousands for the same thing that's $ 1 on e-bay, and many resale markets in between. Ebay sales are probably artificially depressed, though not from PCC's. Whether you approve of their methods or not, the PCC listings represent available supply from none other than those who are desperate to get out. That's likely the biggest reason for the depressed prices, but another might be because there's risk involved in those purchases. Many buyers won't make a timeshare purchase on e-bay, no matter how good a deal. Guess what, distressed high supply and low demand = $1 sale with prepaid MF. Just my kind of purchase.

BTW, I'm the guy who got the 60 TPU week for a buck, with $750/ yr in MF :whoopie: That was my own personal assesment of value.

 

[Carolinian]

NO, it is only at eBay, the market the PCC's have flooded, where it is no longer worthwhile to list blue weeks. They still sell through the local broker like they always have.

Many of the PCC deeds are easy to spot if you know the names of the LLC's they use to hold title like Ludders Wine LLC, Van Drivers Consulting LLC, etc. Looking at who prepared the deeds is another tipoff, again if you know what you are looking at.

Carolinian,

You are actually arguing against yourself that EBay is insignificant in terms of market share. On one side you argue that before PCC you were able to sell even blue weeks for some dollars but now you can't.
Which is a very strong argument that PCCs do influence the market.
But PCCs sells only on EBay so if they can influence the market and they are not even the only sellers on EBay this means that EBay is a large part of the market for resale weeks and have substantial influence of the overall market.

Also just because you search registers for deeds there is no way to determine how much of the sales were done on EBay or even from PCCs.

I buy quite a lot on EBay (and other places) and 75% of the deeds that I bought from PCCs have absolutely no indication that there is PCC involved. Quite the opposite - in these 75% of all cases the deed is between me and the previous owners (who were asked to sign an empty deed at that time).
Other 25% are easy to track since one party of the transaction is LLC.
On top of that I also sell on EBay and again there is no way to track that these transactions between me and my buyers were done on EBay - since deeds are between me and my buyers not with 3rd party and we even use different closing agents since different buyers prefer different closing agency.
I am almost sure from looking at various registrars (Myrtle Beach and Orange County in FL) that aside from developer sales EBay (and PCCs) is the largest marketplace currently for timeshares.
It may not be the best one to sell since prices are usually lower than what you can get from other sites and longer wait but it is usually the quickest place to sell. I can give you an example - I bough a timeshare here on Tug 2 years ago (prime week at silver crown resort) and I was approximately 25-30th person who contacted my seller (according to him). And even after almost 2 months it was still unsold. The reason why I got it was that I made it clear to the seller that I want it at the price listed and I am ready to start the closing immediately. I could have sold the same week on EBay at that time for more that I paid for about a one week listing (or after one more re-listing since 25-30% of EBay auctions have buyers backing out).

 

[Carolinian]

There are different markets with different market levels. eBay has become the bargain basement for timeshare. If you are a buyer, that is exactly where you should go. If you are a seller, you should avoid it like the plague.

Even so, there are not giveaways on everything even on eBay. I thought it might be productive to try to pick up some cheap summer Outer Banks weeks to rent for a profit, but on eBay, I found they are bringing northward of $2K regularly. While that is a much better price than what the local broker is getting for such weeks, it is not the $1 bargain either.

IF I were back in the States where I had easy access to local courts, I would be real tempted to contact some of the marks who originally paid PCC's to take their weeks and offer them $100 for a quitclaim deed. Many of the PCC deeds are drawn by incompetents who record deeds that are invalid and my quitclaim deed would give me superior title.

I find the discussion of "value" and "worth" fascinating. It's seems that many have a different way of establishing value as to what's important to them. For some, the rental rate vs MF is it. For others, it's the price to get high TPU's. But ultimately, it's the price a willing buyer pays to a willing seller in an arm's length transaction. The sales price is driven exclusively by supply and demand for a particual resort/week. Unfortunately, there's tons on the market and few buyers. Thus we have $1 e-bay sales for most weeks. Everything else is irrelevant.

As a stock broker, I see every day the impact of supply and demand. But that's with an efficient market. The problem with timeshares is that there truly is no efficient market. There are multiple markets and each establishes it's own level of equilibrium between buyer and seller. You have developer sales at 10's of thousands for the same thing that's $ 1 on e-bay, and many resale markets in between. Ebay sales are probably artificially depressed, though not from PCC's. Whether you approve of their methods or not, the PCC listings represent available supply from none other than those who are desperate to get out. That's likely the biggest reason for the depressed prices, but another might be because there's risk involved in those purchases. Many buyers won't make a timeshare purchase on e-bay, no matter how good a deal. Guess what, distressed high supply and low demand = $1 sale with prepaid MF. Just my kind of purchase.

BTW, I'm the guy who got the 60 TPU week for a buck, with $750/ yr in MF :whoopie: That was my own personal assesment of value.

 

[ronparise]

IF I were back in the States where I had easy access to local courts, I would be real tempted to contact some of the marks who originally paid PCC's to take their weeks and offer them $100 for a quitclaim deed. Many of the PCC deeds are drawn by incompetents who record deeds that are invalid and my quitclaim deed would give me superior title.

Even if your quitclaim deed gives you superior title. You still cant use it until and unless you convince the resort of that fact. And to do that it seems to me will require a title search and perhaps a day in court. in simple terms it will cost you to have the ebay buyer removed from the resorts records and yours added in their place. Probably more dollars than its worth,

 

[Carolinian]

Even if your quitclaim deed gives you superior title. You still cant use it until and unless you convince the resort of that fact. And to do that it seems to me will require a title search and perhaps a day in court. in simple terms it will cost you to have the ebay buyer removed from the resorts records and yours added in their place. Probably more dollars than its worth,

North Carolina is a ''pure race'' state on priorities where the first to file a valid deed wins regardless of any other equities, so it really is a slam dunk. Knowing many of the HOA attorneys for OBX resorts, I doubt any of them would advise their resorts to go to court over that issue. Other states, that are not ''pure race'' states would indeed be more complicated, and that may be the case in your state. However, as I said, it is not something I would want to do from this distance. I have seen a few in the last 6 months or so that would be very tempting if I were still in eastern North Carolina.

 

[Carolinian]

1. 52 weeks are not blue weeks, of course. In those days, the white weeks typically brought $800 - $1500, and the pink weeks $2K - $3K. Summer red weeks never came the HOA's way. Indeed, the vast majority of them were still owned by the same families which originally bought from the developer, and usually used them themselves rather than exchanging or renting. Your $18,000 is based on all 52 weeks being blue. Personally I have never heard of a timeshare like that anywhere.

2. What is not being offered right then for sale can of course still be offered for rental, and when a rental is confirmed, that unit/week is then not put up for sale. Rental and sale are not mutually exclusive if properly managed.

3. We did not set the price. The auction set the price. We started the blue weeks usually at $99. People bid it up from there. That is simply called the market.

4. Having been there and active in the one market that PCC's have killed for timeshare, which is eBay, I can authoritatively say that your speculation on this subject is simply wrong. The arrival of the PCC's and their dumping were the key factor in destroying eBay as an effective market to sell timeshare resales. Prices have not been impacted in other timeshare resale markets like they have at eBay. With the economy, they are down somewhat, but not dramatically so like on eBay.

I dont doubt that you sold lots of blue weeks for $200-$500. My points are

1) that they were still essentially worthless. At $350 each, 52 timeshare weeks, the equivalent of a whole condo, is only $18000. Unless you are in Southwest Florida where I make my living selling Condos...thats not a whole lot of money...almost worthless

2) The fact that you managed your inventory, by releasing it to the market just a little at a time means what you held back was not generating any income for the association,you may have made a little more on the sale, but you gave up the fee income...sounds like a wash to me, and maybe even poor management

3) that you got $500 for a worthless timeshare only means you took advantage of an unsuspecting buyer....ie you charged too much. making you (in my mind) no different than the ppcs and timeshare salesmen we all love to hate

4)The ppcs didnt kill the market for timeshares. PPCs may have burried it, but it was already dead

 

[vckempson]

For those that beat up on the PCC "dumping" on Ebay... what exactly would you do with that much inventory to sell? How is the result anything other than excess distressed supply and limited demand? Regardless of how the PCC got the inventory, it still represents a constant flow of distressed sellers with few buyers. How is that the PCC's fault? It seems they are just an easy scapegoat for a very real problem. BTW, to be clear, I'm not defending their predatory methods on the front end to secure that inventory.

 

[e.bram]

Carolinian:
Prepare the deed? All you have to do is Xerox the old deed, change the grantor and grantee, the dates and page references. End of story.

 

[e.bram]

Furthermore as an attorney convincing someone to convey a deed to you knowing that person has already conveyed that property, would put you in a position of abetting a fraud to selling the same property to two persons. Even worse if the other person is an attorney.
That might create court activity.

 

[ace2000]

For those that beat up on the PCC "dumping" on Ebay... what exactly would you do with that much inventory to sell? How is the result anything other than excess distressed supply and limited demand? Regardless of how the PCC got the inventory, it still represents a constant flow of distressed sellers with few buyers. How is that the PCC's fault? It seems they are just an easy scapegoat for a very real problem. BTW, to be clear, I'm not defending their predatory methods on the front end to secure that inventory.

There are a lot of people on this forum that want to pound the PCCs every opportunity they can. When you ask them where they bought their timeshares from, they respond they purchased on eBay from these same PCCs.

It's kind of hilarious really.

 

[Carolinian]

Carolinian:
Prepare the deed? All you have to do is Xerox the old deed, change the grantor and grantee, the dates and page references. End of story.

I'll give you a hint. PCC's tend to use laymen from out of state ot prepare deeds who use some other state's form. Real property law has quirks, and what is okay in one state is not necessarily valid in another.

Most individuals who do what you say actually have a much better chance of getting it right because they are using the correct state's form than the idiots who think one size fits all who work for the PCC's.

 

[Carolinian]

There are a lot of people on this forum that want to pound the PCCs every opportunity they can. When you ask them where they bought their timeshares from, they respond they purchased on eBay from these same PCCs.

It's kind of hilarious really.

I have never purchased from a PCC, one reason being that I cannot trust their deeds. If I ever did, I would probably have to keep my fingers crossed that I could hunt down the original owner and get a quitclaim.

PCC's do not deal honestly with their marks from whom they acquire these weeks. Do you defend that?

They also undermine our HOA's. Do you defend that?

 

[ace2000]

I have never purchased from a PCC, one reason being that I cannot trust their deeds. If I ever did, I would probably have to keep my fingers crossed that I could hunt down the original owner and get a quitclaim.

PCC's do not deal honestly with their marks from whom they acquire these weeks. Do you defend that?

They also undermine our HOA's. Do you defend that?

I don't have anything to defend anything other than what I said in my post. Your questions are not for me to defend.

I can also state that the whole timeshare industry, including the owners, is full of greedy people trying protect their own self-interests... and once you understand that, it puts everything into perspective.

 

[am1]

It just shows that owners selling a timeshare is not as easy as some people make it out to be. Anyone looking on eBay will prefer a PCC's ad with lots of feedback, pictures and a number to call.

For people who paid tens of thousands for a timeshare they did not want, paying a few thousand for a timeshare they are not using is not that hard to imagine.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Aiding & Abetting PCC Hornswogglers ?

Should I feel bad about buying eBay $1 (no reserve) timeshares from PCCs, knowing that somewhere along the line a previous owner got seriously hosed ?

Or is it simply a case of What's Done Is Done ?

In which case, mox nix.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[ondeadlin]

North Carolina is a ''pure race'' state on priorities where the first to file a valid deed wins regardless of any other equities, so it really is a slam dunk. Knowing many of the HOA attorneys for OBX resorts, I doubt any of them would advise their resorts to go to court over that issue. Other states, that are not ''pure race'' states would indeed be more complicated, and that may be the case in your state. However, as I said, it is not something I would want to do from this distance. I have seen a few in the last 6 months or so that would be very tempting if I were still in eastern North Carolina.

Even in a pure race jurisdiction, it would not be a slam dunk.

The key is the statement "the first to file a valid deed."

In a pure race jurisdiction, the first recorded deed is presumed valid by the court. The party challenging a deed bears the responsibility to prove it is invalid.

So, yes, you would have to spend (at least) one appearance in court proving that that the earlier title is invalid. You would also have to serve the opposing party with notice of your challenge and give them the opportunity to respond. The court may also award the opposing party damages if it finds your challenge was spurious.

I have no doubt that are many bad/sloppy deeds filed as you suggest. Nonetheless, it is not a slam dunk to challenge them.

 

[Carolinian]

Some of those deeds are so bad that they are invalid on their face. I think you are wrong on the presumption you claim in North Carolina, but do not presently have the research tools here to research the issue. That is not really an issue I ever had to deal with, but well remember Dr. Webster (Webster on Real Property author) lrcturing on the issue at WFU law school. While slamming the PCC's like this would be fun, it is not something I would consider doing from this distance in any event.

Even in a pure race jurisdiction, it would not be a slam dunk.

The key is the statement "the first to file a valid deed."

In a pure race jurisdiction, the first recorded deed is presumed valid by the court. The party challenging a deed bears the responsibility to prove it is invalid.

So, yes, you would have to spend (at least) one appearance in court proving that that the earlier title is invalid. You would also have to serve the opposing party with notice of your challenge and give them the opportunity to respond. The court may also award the opposing party damages if it finds your challenge was spurious.

I have no doubt that are many bad/sloppy deeds filed as you suggest. Nonetheless, it is not a slam dunk to challenge them.

 

[mstoyanov]

Carolinian,

You stated that you never bought from PCCs but you still insist that it is easy to spot a title prepared by PCCs. Let me repeat this - I am buying a lot from PCCs and on 75% of the deeds that they prepare there is NO way to figure that PCC is involved.
The deeds that I receive from these companies are stated to be prepared by previous owners and are between me and these owners and there is no LLCs anywhere on the deed. And in fact most of these deeds are really original deeds from previous owners copied verbally and only names and book/page references changed (like linked references).
The only reason that I know that there are problems with these deeds is because I was part of the transaction and I know that on the day when previous owners signed the deed I haven't even placed a bid on such ownership so I know that they were asked to sign an empty deed.
I am almost certain that the other thing that is wrong with the deed is that it states that the deed has been prepared by previous owners when in fact it has been prepared by PCC company by copying previous deed and changing the name of the seller and leaving field for the buyer empty.

So to make it clear to you - these deeds look exactly like the deeds my buyers receive when I sell timeshare to someone when I am optimizing my portfolio.

So yes there are problems with these deeds but the only way you can try to invalidate these deeds is if you can get either me (buyer) or original owners (sellers) to testify in court about these irregularities and good luck with that. Your chance to do that is about 0 and you will spend more money in court than to simply ask me to sell you the timeshare in question.

NO, it is only at eBay, the market the PCC's have flooded, where it is no longer worthwhile to list blue weeks. They still sell through the local broker like they always have.

Many of the PCC deeds are easy to spot if you know the names of the LLC's they use to hold title like Ludders Wine LLC, Van Drivers Consulting LLC, etc. Looking at who prepared the deeds is another tipoff, again if you know what you are looking at.

 

[Carolinian]

That is a new tactic. Most of them are still using LLC's or POA's on their deeds. For the mark, this blank deed is dangerous. One it is of questionable legality and two it is a dead giveaway that if they do not sell your week, then you may be stuck with it after paying them ~$3K.

In NC, the State Bar is concerned about the out of state closing companies who are preparing timeshare deeds and has issued letters of warning to several of them. Maybe it is time to get someone to take one of those to whom a letter of warning has been issued, watch for deeds, do the leg work and gift wrap it for them so it will be easier to start a prosecution. When money changes hands, not only do they prosecute them for Unauthorized Practice of Law, but also for the felony of Obtaining Money by False Pretenses. That would be hard for me to do from here, but I know some folks who might well be interested.

Carolinian,

You stated that you never bought from PCCs but you still insist that it is easy to spot a title prepared by PCCs. Let me repeat this - I am buying a lot from PCCs and on 75% of the deeds that they prepare there is NO way to figure that PCC is involved.
The deeds that I receive from these companies are stated to be prepared by previous owners and are between me and these owners and there is no LLCs anywhere on the deed. And in fact most of these deeds are really original deeds from previous owners copied verbally and only names and book/page references changed (like linked references).
The only reason that I know that there are problems with these deeds is because I was part of the transaction and I know that on the day when previous owners signed the deed I haven't even placed a bid on such ownership so I know that they were asked to sign an empty deed.
I am almost certain that the other thing that is wrong with the deed is that it states that the deed has been prepared by previous owners when in fact it has been prepared by PCC company by copying previous deed and changing the name of the seller and leaving field for the buyer empty.

So to make it clear to you - these deeds look exactly like the deeds my buyers receive when I sell timeshare to someone when I am optimizing my portfolio.

So yes there are problems with these deeds but the only way you can try to invalidate these deeds is if you can get either me (buyer) or original owners (sellers) to testify in court about these irregularities and good luck with that. Your chance to do that is about 0 and you will spend more money in court than to simply ask me to sell you the timeshare in question.