PE and UR Merger Discussion

[Steamboat Bill]

I am starting this new thread because the other ones are getting too long and off topic.

Here are a few topics I would like to see discussed

1. New information on the PE/UR merger.
2. Is it better to join PE now or UR now?
3. Guesses as to how the merger will impact members.
4. Anything else TUGers want to add

 

[GOLFNBEACH]

I am attending a UR reception at the Liberty Hotel in Boston tomorrow night (Thursday). If anyone has any specific questions please let me know and I will try to get some answers.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

If anyone has any specific questions please let me know and I will try to get some answers.

the 3 most interesting questions to me seem to be >

1. how will reciprocity work for current/new members?
2. what will the entry price (1st plan of 1st tier) be?
3. for any unlimited usage, will there be daily fee?

 

[vivalour]

I am attending a UR reception at the Liberty Hotel in Boston tomorrow night (Thursday). If anyone has any specific questions please let me know and I will try to get some answers.

Perfect timing. Thank you for asking. Curious about the following:
*what is the current paid membership in each category that UR are bringing into the merger?
*is this merger a "fait accompli"?
*what is the business goal(s) of the new entity?
Have fun -- hope they serve some tasty nibbles....should give you a good take on the movers and shakers behind the scenes.

 

[LTTravel]

I am attending a UR reception at the Liberty Hotel in Boston tomorrow night (Thursday). If anyone has any specific questions please let me know and I will try to get some answers.

I would like to know

1. How many homes are in each tier currently
2. How many homes will be in each tier after the merge and will there be a shift of some of the homes between tiers after the merge
3. How many homes are currently and after the merger be owned/leased
4. What happened to the MAP (Member Appreciation Program)
and more importantly as K is asking
5. How will reciprocity work for UR members
6. How will they integrate a program at PE which includes more flexible booking and unlimited nights with UR's more rigid booking and limited nights?

And as an aside are they working to merge with any other DC's

I don't think that they will give you specific answers to any questions but any information would be helpful.

 

[vineyarder]

How will they integrate a program at PE which includes more flexible booking and unlimited nights with UR's more rigid booking and limited nights?

From what I have heard, unlimited nights will disappear after the merger, except for current PE members who will be grandfathered in... new members will have a set number of days, as per URs current model. Supposedly, the more flexible booking system of PE will be extended to everyone, although the minimum may move from 1 day to 2 or possibly 3 days...

1. how will reciprocity work for current/new members?

What I am hearing is that reciprocity will only exist for current PE members...

So, if what I am hearing is correct, seems like a strong incentive to join PE before the merger, as that is the only way to get unlimited usage and reciprocity 'grandfathered' in (as well as avoiding the 25 - 30% price hikes)...

 

[Kagehitokiri]

i agree it makes sense unlimited nights is ending. question is more for those joining before merger.

however, how can they advertise "able to vacation at more than 140 hidden gems" if theyre getting rid of reciprocity?

(http://www.starttheexperience.com/)

im also very curious about how cheap the "bronze" plan will be for the $1MM tier..

lets do some price summaries/estimates.. >
50k 14 > 65k 14 ? (with 1 wk reciprocity = best DC deal?)
125k 14 > 165k 14
200k 14 > 265k 14

reciprocity and entry pricing seem like HUGE issues to me, and i just cant believe theyre not addressing it. thats why it sure seems to me like they do NOT want people joining before the merger is completed.

OR that like a few others have said, for different reasons, that theyre going to sell off the $800K tier to HCC or something.. that would again make their current advertising pretty much a flat out lie though...

i think those who have raised questions - about backgrounds of officers as well as general plans - are also going in the right direction, because of these sorts of issues. transparency seems to be completely lacking right now. especially since theyve been working on this for so long. even those talking to either club right now seem to be getting incomplete/inconsistent information.

 

[vivalour]

reciprocity and entry pricing seem like HUGE issues to me, and i just cant believe theyre not addressing it. thats why it sure seems to me like they do NOT want people joining before the merger is completed.
transparency seems to be completely lacking right now. especially since theyve been working on this for so long. even those talking to either club right now seem to be getting incomplete/inconsistent information.

Hey K, actually my impression has been that they (PE) DO want people to join pre-merger. I received an email outlining the incentives -- most of which were already discussed here -- and quite straightforward answers to questions I asked so far. No phone calls from them or pressure though, just responses to our emails so far.

To those who compare DCs to a golf club: I don't know how a golf club works -- though I once belonged to a tennis club -- but unlike DCs, they were somehow rooted in a community and the investors/owners were known to people who bought in. In this virtual world of DCs you never know how much is smoke and mirrors, if ya get my drift.... I think that is why some people like me are a bit gun-shy.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

i dont recall seeing discussion of transparency issues in this forum, other than related to this merger. perhaps people havent asked the right questions, but as i said, i dont get why theyre not hyping the nitty gritty details more, if they really want people to join before the merger is completed. theyre not just lazy/incompetent are they?

my real point is this whole thing seems kind of odd to me, and i agree with those asking questions about the business plan.

another thought - who gets access to the hotels, if not everyone?

 

[LTTravel]

From what I have heard, unlimited nights will disappear after the merger, except for current PE members who will be grandfathered in... new members will have a set number of days, as per URs current model. Supposedly, the more flexible booking system of PE will be extended to everyone, although the minimum may move from 1 day to 2 or possibly 3 days...



What I am hearing is that reciprocity will only exist for current PE members...

So, if what I am hearing is correct, seems like a strong incentive to join PE before the merger, as that is the only way to get unlimited usage and reciprocity 'grandfathered' in (as well as avoiding the 25 - 30% price hikes)...

Wouldn't the current UR members revolt if only PE members had unlimited nights and reciprocity. That would mean that the merger has treated the two club members differently and it is an uneven merger. Was the membership in PE worth more that a membership in UR? UR members would certainly not agree to that and I don't think that UR management would agree to that. Many members of UR have joined at a lower price point and were offered 80% current value on leaving. May p--- them off and encourage them to leave. I think that they have already thought this out and just have not announced it yet. Clearly this is an important point that must have been discussed within the merger talks

 

[Sherpa]

Golfnbeach, I'm planning on attending too - so will be good to meet you.

(Am also interested to see how the new hotel looks - after conversion from the old Charles St Jail)

 

[GOLFNBEACH]

Golfnbeach, I'm planning on attending too - so will be good to meet you.

(Am also interested to see how the new hotel looks - after conversion from the old Charles St Jail)

I look forward to meeting you as well.

 

[vivalour]

Wouldn't the current UR members revolt if only PE members had unlimited nights and reciprocity. That would mean that the merger has treated the two club members differently and it is an uneven merger. Was the membership in PE worth more that a membership in UR? UR members would certainly not agree to that and I don't think that UR management would agree to that. Many members of UR have joined at a lower price point and were offered 80% current value on leaving. May p--- them off and encourage them to leave. I think that they have already thought this out and just have not announced it yet. Clearly this is an important point that must have been discussed within the merger talks

In addition to some answers on these details, the most important factor for me now is openness about their business plan. They don't have to tell all, of course, since they are not a public company, but it would sure help me come to a decision.

Puff Puff made this point in relation to HCC in an earlier post: "Most of us made the decision to join HCC after reviewing their 10 year plan, projections, and frank discussions with their financial exec. Their business model made sense once it was presented and explained. The result is that many of us joined and HCC has exceeded their projections so far. I believe that a big reason that they are successful is their openness with their business plans."

 

[vineyarder]

Wouldn't the current UR members revolt if only PE members had unlimited nights and reciprocity. That would mean that the merger has treated the two club members differently and it is an uneven merger. Was the membership in PE worth more that a membership in UR? UR members would certainly not agree to that and I don't think that UR management would agree to that.

I can see UR members being upset, but I can also see the point of "every current member of both clubs will continue to get the deal that they signed up for"... i.e. the UR members who signed up for 14 nights for $X/yr will continue to get 14 nts for $X/yr... In addition, the majority of the UR members are former T&H members who would really have no basis for complaint, as they were 'saved' by UR when they had no other place to turn, and were brought into UR without paying any deposit over what they had lost to T&H...

however, how can they advertise "able to vacation at more than 140 hidden gems" if theyre getting rid of reciprocity?

(http://www.starttheexperience.com/)

PE is advertising this; I don't know that UR is advertising this... And anyone who joins PE now, before the merger, WILL have access to all three clubs through reciprocity, even if reciprocity is stopped for new members after the merger... at which point I'm sure that they would change the advertising... But it is true at this point, even if only for current members and people that join w/i the next 6 - 8 weeks...

reciprocity and entry pricing seem like HUGE issues to me, and i just cant believe theyre not addressing it. thats why it sure seems to me like they do NOT want people joining before the merger is completed.

I think that they are using the uncertainty of these issues to drive pre-merger sales... after all, if you join before the merger you know what YOUR pricing will be after the merger (since they are still grandfathering in new members) and you'll know that YOU will still have reciprocity... and you know that if you wait, the prices will be going up 20 - 30%, although there may be a less expensive plan available after the merger with fewer nights...

 

[travelguy]

In addition, the majority of the UR members are former T&H members who would really have no basis for complaint, as they were 'saved' by UR when they had no other place to turn, and were brought into UR without paying any deposit over what they had lost to T&H...

I believe that this assumption on the part of UR would be a HUGE mistake. Basic human nature tells us that UR should not play the "we saved you from T&H and now you are second class members and you will like it" card!

PE is advertising this; I don't know that UR is advertising this... And anyone who joins PE now, before the merger, WILL have access to all three clubs through reciprocity, even if reciprocity is stopped for new members after the merger... at which point I'm sure that they would change the advertising... But it is true at this point, even if only for current members and people that join w/i the next 6 - 8 weeks...

I received a pitch from UR two days ago which did not even mention the impending UR/PE merger!

I think that they are using the uncertainty of these issues to drive pre-merger sales

I think we have all learned from Timeshare Purchasing 101 that you NEVER buy if you are uncertain about what you are buying AND what you are buying is not in WRITING!

... after all, if you join before the merger you know what YOUR pricing will be after the merger (since they are still grandfathering in new members) and you'll know that YOU will still have reciprocity... and you know that if you wait, the prices will be going up 20 - 30%, although there may be a less expensive plan available after the merger with fewer nights...

You DO know what the pricing is but you DON'T know WHAT you are buying! (< I love this "eek"!)

 

[travelguy]

Puff Puff made this point in relation to HCC in an earlier post: "Most of us made the decision to join HCC after reviewing their 10 year plan, projections, and frank discussions with their financial exec. Their business model made sense once it was presented and explained. The result is that many of us joined and HCC has exceeded their projections so far. I believe that a big reason that they are successful is their openness with their business plans."

Sounds almost like a Travelguy quote.

Those of us who became involved in High Country Club in the early stages were in a similar situation. The HCC business plan was different and the target demographic was different than the generally accepted DC business plan. Most of us made the decision to join HCC after reviewing their 10 year plan, projections, and frank discussions with their financial exec. Their business model made sense once it was presented and explained. The result is that many of us joined and HCC has exceeded their projections so far. I believe that a big reason that they are successful is their openness with their business plans.

 

[vivalour]

"Most of us made the decision to join HCC after reviewing their 10 year plan, projections, and frank discussions with their financial exec.

Oh sorry travelguy, could be my blurry eyes at 6 a.m., anyway, you all spout such gems of wisdom, they're almost worth putting into a Book for the Befuddled about DCs....

After all the glowing reviews here, I wish HCC fit in better with our family's travel/vacation needs -- we'd join today -- and 2 clubs would be overkill in our case I'm afraid...we still have a boy to put through private high school and college....

 

[Kagehitokiri]

vineyarder, you are suggesting that 400 PE members will have access to every property, while 800 UR members will only have access to a fraction of them. that would make absolutely no sense to me, as its giving PE members the better end of the deal when they are half the size of UR. if there is any imbalance, it would be toward UR, not PE. especially with the maintaining of unlimited usage for PE members, even with daily fee or high annual fee, it can still be very "costly" for the club if members use it.

so wheres the benefit for UR with PE getting those 2 things? only a couple properties, that are shared with PE along with current UR properties, therefore decreasing total avail for UR members...

 

[travelguy]

Oh sorry travelguy, could be my blurry eyes at 6 a.m., anyway, you all spout such gems of wisdom, they're almost worth putting into a Book for the Befuddled about DCs....

No problem. I actually read the quote and thought it was quite good ... and then I thought is sounded familiar. I had to go back into my own posts to determine if it was my quote because I wasn't sure.

After all the glowing reviews here, I wish HCC fit in better with our family's travel/vacation needs -- we'd join today -- and 2 clubs would be overkill in our case I'm afraid...we still have a boy to put through private high school and college....

Just out of curiosity, what is it about HCC that doesn't fit your families travel plans?

FWIW - It seems that with the outrageous costs of private high school and college you'd want to really consider the low cost of HCC.

 

[travelguy]

vineyarder, you are suggesting that 400 PE members will have access to every property, while 800 UR members will only have access to a fraction of them. that would make absolutely no sense to me, as its giving PE members the better end of the deal when they are half the size of UR. if there is any imbalance, it would be toward UR, not PE. especially with the maintaining of unlimited usage for PE members, even with daily fee or high annual fee, it can still be very "costly" for the club if members use it.

so wheres the benefit for UR with PE getting those 2 things? only a couple properties, that are shared with PE along with current UR properties, therefore decreasing total avail for UR members...

Great Point! How will the reservation policy be structured and how will it affect availability once the clubs merge. If they have over 300 members between the 3 PE tiers with unlimited access and the ability to book 1, 2 or 3 nights at any time up to 2 years in advance, the new post merger PE/UR members and UR current members are going to be very discouraged with the availability. There’s going to be countless times when a UR or new PE/UR members are going to try and book a week somewhere and an old PE member has booked 2 nights in the middle of peak season. There’s no way they can keep members happy when there are 2 very different reservation policies and the current PE members have a huge advantage over new and current UR members.

Yet another indication that this is either not thought out in advance or we're not getting the whole story!

 

[Kagehitokiri]

travelguy, i wish the deals HCC has gotten were for actual beachfront (like PE) or ski-in/ski-out (detached single family) ... i also question why they only got 1 villa in mexico, but 4 condos. whatever the criteria for selection, its just not appealing to me. i feel the same way about ER, and some other clubs.

bill's point below is another major one, that definitely came up a lot in the PE vs HCC threads.

back to merger, i dont think theyre lazy/incompetent. thats what makes me question whats going on. to summarize my previous point, i see 3 HUGE downsides, and little to NO upside for current UR members, based on what vineyarder (currently PE) was suggesting for what might happen.

 

[Steamboat Bill]

I don't want to change the topic being discussed, but some of the potential merger problems may be a direct result of the ability to book a flexible number of nights in a property vs having to book an entire week like HCC.

I LOVE the thought of having the ability to book a set number of nights of use such as 4 nights in Orlando, 9 nights in Colorado, 2 nights in NYC, but this creates great inefficiencies in the reservations system.

I personally think that a week based system like HCC makes it MOST fair to everyone because it limits the reservation to 1/52 possibilities per property with uniform check-in/out days.

 

[travelguy]

travelguy, i wish the deals HCC has gotten were for actual beachfront (like PE) or ski-in/ski-out (detached single family) ... i also question why they only got 1 villa in mexico, but 4 condos. whatever the criteria for selection, its just not appealing to me. i feel the same way about ER, and some other clubs.

I've stayed at or visited over 10 HCC properties that were both detached single-family homes and condos at both beaches and ski slopes. I believe each type of property has it's own appeal and often that appeal is immediately apparent in person and could never translate to the HCC web site or a description. I'm facing that now with a review I'm working on for the HCC Hilton Head Island home which is NOT beach front BUT I love it! (and yes, I've tried throwing the lightest beach chair I could find and didn't throw it anywhere close to the water).

back to merger, i dont think theyre lazy/incompetent. thats what makes me question whats going on. to summarize my previous point, i see 3 HUGE downsides, and little to NO upside for current UR members, based on what vineyarder (currently PE) was suggesting for what might happen.

I agree. I can't figure out why UR has agreed to this merger based upon what we've seen so far. Is it because they went in over their head financially to pull off the T&H takeover? (Has anyone seen a recent UR balance sheet?) I admit I've done little more than observe the TUG discussions about the PE/UR merger but it seems like something else is afoot! Although I will say that at least we know PE and UR are real and ongoing concerns which we don't know about DHH!

 

[saluki]

Doug-

Just curious...are you an investor in HCC in addition to being a member?

 

[LTTravel]

I personally think that a week based system like HCC makes it MOST fair to everyone because it limits the reservation to 1/52 possibilities per property with uniform check-in/out days.

For some reason, the flexible booking systme of DVC works. I think it is because there are many units, many different resorts and they own some of the units allowing them to rent out the extra. Other timeshares are on the weekly system. I agree that I would love the flexible booking in a DC, but this would be very inefficient because even the largest DC has only 300 homes in 35 destinations but DVC has many rooms in limited destinations. For the smaller DC's it would be a disaster.