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Planet Hollywood Towers - the #1 timeshare in the US?
- Thread starter PerryM
- Start date
- Status
e.bram
Guest
The way that I look Las Vegas, the high rollers(rich people) are comped and have no need to buy or renr accomodations. Most everyone else can get the accomodation thrown in for the price of the airfare or busfare.
Also gambling is spreading thrughout the country(even NYC eventually), taking way Las Vegas' uniqueness leaving it more overbuilt than it is now.
It is insanity to buy an expensive TS in Las Vegas at this time.
Also gambling is spreading thrughout the country(even NYC eventually), taking way Las Vegas' uniqueness leaving it more overbuilt than it is now.
It is insanity to buy an expensive TS in Las Vegas at this time.
JeffW
TUG Member
I always thought the best place to buy (which justified the sometimes high costs of timeshares) is where lodging costs tend to be pricier. Just looking at the most highly rated resorts on TUG:
- For Season's resorts
- Disney resorts
- Hawaii
- Atlantis (Harborside)
None of these are cheap. (Personally, I've alwasys included Key West in that list as well - you're not going to find good $50-$60 / night rooms.) It's sort of like home improvements - you don't want to do some much remodelling, or high quality items, that you price yourself above the market ("don't build a mansion in a ghetto").
Like e.bram said, I don't see rich people looking to spend $4k/wk on lodging. If they have much for lodging, they probably have as much (or more) for 'playing', in which case they'd work for a comp for a deluxe room.
Jeff
- For Season's resorts
- Disney resorts
- Hawaii
- Atlantis (Harborside)
None of these are cheap. (Personally, I've alwasys included Key West in that list as well - you're not going to find good $50-$60 / night rooms.) It's sort of like home improvements - you don't want to do some much remodelling, or high quality items, that you price yourself above the market ("don't build a mansion in a ghetto").
Like e.bram said, I don't see rich people looking to spend $4k/wk on lodging. If they have much for lodging, they probably have as much (or more) for 'playing', in which case they'd work for a comp for a deluxe room.
Jeff
Renting week 52 for big money
I do believe "Perry" can get $10,000 or more for the rental of his condo in week 52.
Perrry can because he knows how to rent.
It wont rent in a TUG add. It will rent for the biggest amount less than 45 days, before check-in. These people will also pay top dollar for their plane fares, they dont care. They want the best accomadations for their family and friends, and they dont plan very far in advance. Doctors, lawyers, real estate developers, athletes etc. Tuggers dont expose thier rentals in the position for these people to see them, and are afraid to wait this close to departure to place an ad for the rental. FEW people treat it as a BUSINESS, most Tuggers treat it has a hobby.
.
I do believe "Perry" can get $10,000 or more for the rental of his condo in week 52.
Perrry can because he knows how to rent.
It wont rent in a TUG add. It will rent for the biggest amount less than 45 days, before check-in. These people will also pay top dollar for their plane fares, they dont care. They want the best accomadations for their family and friends, and they dont plan very far in advance. Doctors, lawyers, real estate developers, athletes etc. Tuggers dont expose thier rentals in the position for these people to see them, and are afraid to wait this close to departure to place an ad for the rental. FEW people treat it as a BUSINESS, most Tuggers treat it has a hobby.
.
bruwery
TUG Member
S
Steamboat Bill
Just a few more comments on Westgate.
1. I have zero experience with Starwood and don't know if they are good or bad, thus, it is moot to me if they are involved.
2. I have a 100% satisfaction rating for my Westgate Park City experience. This is truly a gem of a timeshare and their services from reservations, to check-in to spa, to restaurant, to skier services "Exceeds" my expectations. If Westgate Las Vegas is anything like PC, then the new owners have nothing to worry about.
3. I believe that Las Vegas will be the new flagship Westgate property and they will make sure that the experience will be even better than Park City.
4. I am not a huge Las Vegas fan, thus I have no interest in owning, but I will want to trade into this resort when it opens.
1. I have zero experience with Starwood and don't know if they are good or bad, thus, it is moot to me if they are involved.
2. I have a 100% satisfaction rating for my Westgate Park City experience. This is truly a gem of a timeshare and their services from reservations, to check-in to spa, to restaurant, to skier services "Exceeds" my expectations. If Westgate Las Vegas is anything like PC, then the new owners have nothing to worry about.
3. I believe that Las Vegas will be the new flagship Westgate property and they will make sure that the experience will be even better than Park City.
4. I am not a huge Las Vegas fan, thus I have no interest in owning, but I will want to trade into this resort when it opens.
joestein
TUG Member
I just wanted to post this comment I saw on the street talk blog:
Joe
Comment by dawg
2007-06-05 10:19:39
Will the sales professional who sold the 4-bed preconstruction planet holllywood Westgate unit in Vegas to PerryM please step forward? I’d like to shake your hand and buy you a beer or at least raise a glass to your triumph. The grapevine is humming and there’s some of us out here grinning fit to kill!!! kudos dude or dudette!!!!!
Joe
Comment by dawg
2007-06-05 10:19:39
Will the sales professional who sold the 4-bed preconstruction planet holllywood Westgate unit in Vegas to PerryM please step forward? I’d like to shake your hand and buy you a beer or at least raise a glass to your triumph. The grapevine is humming and there’s some of us out here grinning fit to kill!!! kudos dude or dudette!!!!!
PA-
TUG Member
Hi Perry,
So somebody went to Vegas and believe they "beat the house", due to their superior skills? Wow, that's a first.
Any decision made by a knowledgeable decision with all information available is, by definition, the "right" decision for that person. We can't know how much Perry will value the usage he gets (if any. How many week 52's can one family use?) So all we can comment on is this investment from a purely financial standpoint.
I've purchased a number of timeshares with as high or higher original developer costs (in 2007 dollars) as Perry paid for this timeshare. And I've always bought them for pennies on the dollar. I've done so strictly as an investment, not for usage, so it's perhaps not the same type of purchase as Perry's. One thing is a constant; timeshare prices go down over time, compared to equivalent real estate. It may not go down in a straight line, it may have a brief spike up (if you truly beat the house due to your mad skills at negotiating, or due to ROFR), but it will go down relative to real estate over time. You WILL lose a ton of money if you don't get out early. How early is open for debate. Once the resort is sold out or the ROFR ends (whichever comes last), the depreciation will be in a straight line. How steep that line is may be debatable, but the straight line isn't, in my opinion.
No matter your negotiating skills, here are the facts. Unless the property is distressed, you paid at least enough to cover the underlying real estate cost, plus sales & marketing expenses. So even if you negotiated away their entire profit (not likely), you still paid 3 - 5 times the underlying real estate value. Over time, the value will be less than the underlying real estate value.
As for comparing L.V. to Beaver Creek week 52? Apples and oranges. Week 52 isn't even the highest demand week in Las Vegas. Comdex week is more difficult to find lodging. At Beaver Creek, week 52 carries a huge premium over other weeks. In L.V., the premium isn't as much on the open market. Ski resorts are perhaps the most seasonal timeshares around, since the ski season is so short. And Beaver Creek is among the highest demand/shortest supply, with only 4 timeshares on the mountain and a handful in Avon. Las Vegas has a MUCH longer prime season.
Unlike a ski resort, there's no shortage of available land in Vegas for newer, better timeshares. Look for the area around the Cancun casino to be fully developed with casinos/hotels that are even better and more expensive than the ones around Caeser's Palace.
As for including rentals in the financial analysis, it may help in the early years, while this is a newer property with low maintenance fees. But over time, many more newer, better timeshares will be built in Vegas. And I expect maintenance fees to skyrocket over time. As with the hotels in Vegas, and as with timeshares in Orlando, the bar is constantly being raised. It'll be tough to count on rentals helping that much over the long haul.
I'd rate this is as a poor investment choice, from a purely financial standpoint. Just my opinion.
So somebody went to Vegas and believe they "beat the house", due to their superior skills? Wow, that's a first.
Any decision made by a knowledgeable decision with all information available is, by definition, the "right" decision for that person. We can't know how much Perry will value the usage he gets (if any. How many week 52's can one family use?) So all we can comment on is this investment from a purely financial standpoint.
I've purchased a number of timeshares with as high or higher original developer costs (in 2007 dollars) as Perry paid for this timeshare. And I've always bought them for pennies on the dollar. I've done so strictly as an investment, not for usage, so it's perhaps not the same type of purchase as Perry's. One thing is a constant; timeshare prices go down over time, compared to equivalent real estate. It may not go down in a straight line, it may have a brief spike up (if you truly beat the house due to your mad skills at negotiating, or due to ROFR), but it will go down relative to real estate over time. You WILL lose a ton of money if you don't get out early. How early is open for debate. Once the resort is sold out or the ROFR ends (whichever comes last), the depreciation will be in a straight line. How steep that line is may be debatable, but the straight line isn't, in my opinion.
No matter your negotiating skills, here are the facts. Unless the property is distressed, you paid at least enough to cover the underlying real estate cost, plus sales & marketing expenses. So even if you negotiated away their entire profit (not likely), you still paid 3 - 5 times the underlying real estate value. Over time, the value will be less than the underlying real estate value.
As for comparing L.V. to Beaver Creek week 52? Apples and oranges. Week 52 isn't even the highest demand week in Las Vegas. Comdex week is more difficult to find lodging. At Beaver Creek, week 52 carries a huge premium over other weeks. In L.V., the premium isn't as much on the open market. Ski resorts are perhaps the most seasonal timeshares around, since the ski season is so short. And Beaver Creek is among the highest demand/shortest supply, with only 4 timeshares on the mountain and a handful in Avon. Las Vegas has a MUCH longer prime season.
Unlike a ski resort, there's no shortage of available land in Vegas for newer, better timeshares. Look for the area around the Cancun casino to be fully developed with casinos/hotels that are even better and more expensive than the ones around Caeser's Palace.
As for including rentals in the financial analysis, it may help in the early years, while this is a newer property with low maintenance fees. But over time, many more newer, better timeshares will be built in Vegas. And I expect maintenance fees to skyrocket over time. As with the hotels in Vegas, and as with timeshares in Orlando, the bar is constantly being raised. It'll be tough to count on rentals helping that much over the long haul.
I'd rate this is as a poor investment choice, from a purely financial standpoint. Just my opinion.
Spence
Banned
Perry, I sent you an email through TUG a week or so ago and never got the promised analysis.
Phillip, Has there been a COMDEX in the last three years?
Phillip, Has there been a COMDEX in the last three years?
Fern Modena
TUG Lifetime Member
For all intents and purposes, Comdex is dead. Try CES week, NASCAR week, or one of the two MAGIC weeks.
Fern
Fern
S
Steamboat Bill
What is "the street talk blog?"
I attended many Comdex shows in LV...sadly it grew too large and is no more.
PA-
TUG Member
http://www.streettalkblog.com/
Street talk is the antithesis of TUG. It's a forum where timeshare industry employees share info, rumors, etc.
A timeshare salesperson's greatest enemy is knowledge. They rely on uneducated consumers. I assume Dawg's post is an indication that Perry's purchase is cause for celebration, since they were actually able to sell a timeshare to someone on TUG.
spike
TUG Member
Yeah, like there are NO other casinos around.
wbtimesharer
TUG Member
Only time will tell if Perry has or has not made a good "investment" I am assuming that this was an investment purchase with the goal of getting at least a 10-20% ROI annually. If the purchase price is in the 90's, you would have to pull around 10,000 in rentals to make that mark. Be interesting to hear if that is the going and accepted rate.
I have a hard time believing that anyone would pay more on the resale market for a unit than what the developer is charging while the resort is being built. What would be the advantage to a buyer to buy from someone like Perry for more than what they would pay the resort while missing the usual perks offered by developers to purchase.
There is a lot of open desert around Vegas and I think you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg on resort development. I think you are going to see an Orlando like overbuild in the near future if it isn't here already. The problem with Vegas is that its a one trick pony with really only gambling to draw in people. Given, it is the premier gambling spot and "it" place to go in the U.S. to do that. However, there are a lot of Casino's being built across the country plus online opportunities for those homebodies having the itch. If Sports betting ever is opened up across the country, Vegas might start feeling the pinch. I know it has tried going the "family" direction and that seems to have petered out.
Perry, good luck on your purchase(s). I would guess that you will see hefty subsidised MF's initially. I would expect them to climb into the 1000's before its all over. I would also expect to see a lot of resales hitting the market in about 5 years for this resort going for considerably less than what is being charged now. I may even be in the market for one.
Bill
e.bram
Guest
Everybody is beating around the bush. I believe that either PerryM is putting us on or shilling for the developer.
PA-
TUG Member
C'mon, P,
Why the thin skin, all of a sudden? You're a hardened TUGger, aren't you? You knew you were taking an unpopular stance. Buy from the developer?
If you have a valid reason to do so, and think your decision was right, what do you care what we think? Didn't you think my analysis was well reasoned and objective? If so, fire back your own analsyis, don't lay down! This is an open debate, it's not pot shots at Perry. I, for one, didn't mean for this to be personal. I thought we were having a discussion among adults, not meant to be a personal attack.
Can we at least agree to disagree with the analysis without malice?
And by the way, "shill for the developer" isn't the worst insult anybody can recieve. As a matter of fact, I was thinking after one of your recent posts about being able to defend a developer purchase from Marriott that you could probably make hundreds of thousands of dollars per year as a salesperson for Marriott, if you chose to do so.
Perry,
I'm not sure why you are so upset that everyone isn't jumping up and down for the chance to follow your lead and buy a super expensive Westgate week in Las Vegas. If you truly just want to help people...then what difference does it make if they take you up on it or not?
You seem to want people to worship you as some sort of timeshare guru, and you seem genuinely upset when this doesn't happen. I have watched this over the years both here on TUG and on the WorldMark Owners BBS. It's almost as if you think people shouldn't dare to question your judgment when it comes to timeshares because you are so wise and have done so much research.
Frankly, I think you...like most of us...have a mixed record when it comes to timeshare purchases. Obviously, I don't know everything you have bought and sold. But from what I have read over the years, you sold your prime Marriott weeks in Park City for a nice profit in order to put that money into WorldMark credits. While you did well, the Marriott weeks have continued to increase in value since you sold them while WorldMark has dropped in value since you purchased. I remember well how you kept buying more WorldMark credits and encouraging everyone else to do the same at the current market prices before Wyndham came out with an elite program. Instead of a quality elite program, however, Wyndham announced TravelShare...and the value of WorldMark is going down...not up.
If I recall correctly, a big chunk of your WorldMark/Trendwest/Wyndham investment is in the fractionals at South Shore at Lake Tahoe. You were certain that this would appreciate in value and be a gold mine, but this resort has not been a success. In fact, Trendwest/Wyndham has stopped building fractional units and converted most of the unsold units at this resort to Fairfield FairShare inventory.
In addition, if I remember right, you purchased a condo hotel in Daytona Beach. You talked it up as a fantastic investment and the wave of the future. But Daytona is not one of the more upscale beaches in Florida, and since you purchased, the bottom has dropped out of the Florida real estate market.
Now you have spent an extremely large amount of money for a Westgate week in Las Vegas...and you're upset because people are questioning your judgment and unwilling to jump on the band wagon. Despite the fact that you have a very mixed track record...and a tendency to get carried away with your "developer du jour" (such as Trendwest until recently)...everyone is supposed to just ignore all of the established timeshare wisdom and even their gut instincts...beg you for your detailed analysis...and then rush out and purchase Westgate's Planet Hollywood with wild abandon.
I think it's time for a reality check. You're perfectly free to buy whatever you like and share your reasons with anyone you wish, but it takes more than a bit of audacity to be so offended when others don't rush out and copy you.
Steve
I'm not sure why you are so upset that everyone isn't jumping up and down for the chance to follow your lead and buy a super expensive Westgate week in Las Vegas. If you truly just want to help people...then what difference does it make if they take you up on it or not?
You seem to want people to worship you as some sort of timeshare guru, and you seem genuinely upset when this doesn't happen. I have watched this over the years both here on TUG and on the WorldMark Owners BBS. It's almost as if you think people shouldn't dare to question your judgment when it comes to timeshares because you are so wise and have done so much research.
Frankly, I think you...like most of us...have a mixed record when it comes to timeshare purchases. Obviously, I don't know everything you have bought and sold. But from what I have read over the years, you sold your prime Marriott weeks in Park City for a nice profit in order to put that money into WorldMark credits. While you did well, the Marriott weeks have continued to increase in value since you sold them while WorldMark has dropped in value since you purchased. I remember well how you kept buying more WorldMark credits and encouraging everyone else to do the same at the current market prices before Wyndham came out with an elite program. Instead of a quality elite program, however, Wyndham announced TravelShare...and the value of WorldMark is going down...not up.
If I recall correctly, a big chunk of your WorldMark/Trendwest/Wyndham investment is in the fractionals at South Shore at Lake Tahoe. You were certain that this would appreciate in value and be a gold mine, but this resort has not been a success. In fact, Trendwest/Wyndham has stopped building fractional units and converted most of the unsold units at this resort to Fairfield FairShare inventory.
In addition, if I remember right, you purchased a condo hotel in Daytona Beach. You talked it up as a fantastic investment and the wave of the future. But Daytona is not one of the more upscale beaches in Florida, and since you purchased, the bottom has dropped out of the Florida real estate market.
Now you have spent an extremely large amount of money for a Westgate week in Las Vegas...and you're upset because people are questioning your judgment and unwilling to jump on the band wagon. Despite the fact that you have a very mixed track record...and a tendency to get carried away with your "developer du jour" (such as Trendwest until recently)...everyone is supposed to just ignore all of the established timeshare wisdom and even their gut instincts...beg you for your detailed analysis...and then rush out and purchase Westgate's Planet Hollywood with wild abandon.
I think it's time for a reality check. You're perfectly free to buy whatever you like and share your reasons with anyone you wish, but it takes more than a bit of audacity to be so offended when others don't rush out and copy you.
Steve
Fern Modena
TUG Lifetime Member
So, Perry, does that mean you are going to take your bat and ball and go home now? That's your right, of course, cause it *is* your bat and ball after all.
I don't know what you expected. You know what TUG is, and it generally isn't populated with people who will spend $80K to $100K for a week's timeshare. If you read back thru your early posts you might find the reason people seemed to challenge your reasoning.
Me? I really don't care about the whole issue one way or another. This whole thread has no reality to me. If I had an extra $80-100K, I certainly wouldn't spend it on a timeshare. But that's me.
Fern
I don't know what you expected. You know what TUG is, and it generally isn't populated with people who will spend $80K to $100K for a week's timeshare. If you read back thru your early posts you might find the reason people seemed to challenge your reasoning.
Me? I really don't care about the whole issue one way or another. This whole thread has no reality to me. If I had an extra $80-100K, I certainly wouldn't spend it on a timeshare. But that's me.
Fern
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