[Poll added - see post 1] Can resorts increase the VALUE of their product???

[sally13]

A poll has been added to this thread - you can vote for as many items as you want. The question had to be brief because of the limitations of the format - assume that the resort is the type that's being proposed in this thread, it's in your favorite travel location, and it includes all of your favorite activities. - DeniseM Moderator.

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I started to think about how a resort could safegaurd itself from this brutal economic resale problem..I guess getting any m. fee is better then not getting one ,thus the value of the resale market.. On our latest trip to southern florida I talked to the sales guys about how the resale market is ruining the equity in thier product.The 3 person team that crowded me ,said thier sales were down and the corporation (well known) had soon to be released info on this very topic..I managed to wrangle a hint out of them of what this news was.The top sales guy(from what I could tell) said he thinks it has something to do with a unit placement guarantee for original retail buyers and new retail owners. vs resale contracts..I asked if he thought that was unfair..his response was ..what do these people expect for a buck on ebay?? I found this solution if implemented a fair reward for the owners that have spent the higher dollar amount...ie...resale contract owners get the units that get the most complaints...

 

[nazclk]

increase in value

When the Saints come marching home :hysterical:

 

[strandlover]

A Fatally Flawed Approach

- This would not hold water for fixed week timeshares.

- Using the analogy of equity shares in corporations: Why should a stockholder's vote carry less value because he/she purchased the stock for 1¢ and not $100?

 

[rickandcindy23]

Sales pitch. Why are you concerned? I am not at all concerned about buying resale. I think you are asking the wrong people (salespeople) for information. :rofl:

 

[sally13]

well..

Yes I agree that the sales guys could be giving misleading info,but in getting industry info.. If not them then who??They are the ones most impacted from the (ebay..resale problem)I do care because Equity in anything one owns is important...Now.. I DO know that this will not be good for many here if this becomes an industry standard to combat resale....IMHO..they should do SOMETHING before thier system becomes unworkable..

 

[ran-ran]

Wrong approach

What a horrible approach of thinking by the resorts to suggest taking benefits away instead of using the opportunity to increase value at the specific resorts. The resorts could focus on improving vacations by their owners and visitors by offering increased value during their stay by offering additional services. If they don't currently offer WIFI, maybe they should. If they charge for laundry, make it free, etc.
This is my humble opinion and it seems to be a more proactive business strategy then decreasing benefits.

 

[DeniseM]

Timeshares are not a financial investment. If you are thinking about it in those terms, you are always going to be disappointed in your timeshare.

I thought you were never posting on TUG again?

 

[Passepartout]

(s)he's Baaaaack, and still...:deadhorse:

 

[fishingguy]

fishin' time, chapter 9

Hangin' with a bunch of timeshare retail sales types, doesn't bode very well for one's reputation. Most of these guys have been noted to: resort to starting rumors and telling half truths; feeding on a victims feelings of greed, fear or being left-out; conjuring up sales by talking about things not in the contract; and other lies. Not a good crowd to be asking for advice, because it's in their interest and demeanor; to not tell the truth.

The solution that they proposed doesn't do much for someone who owns and uses their fixed week, or trades his unit into other resorts. Furthermore, I suspect over half the resorts doen't even get involved in booking a unit at their resort anymore -- they use RCI/II or a management company that is not associated with any "Sales Staff". [But, maybe these guys are really wishing?]

See, ...it really isn't that hard to look right through them! Don't let them fish you in, like they did. Pity the person that bought a timeshare for its retained equity; they must have got fished in too.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Yes I agree that the sales guys could be giving misleading info,but in getting industry info.. If not them then who??They are the ones most impacted from the (ebay..resale problem)I do care because Equity in anything one owns is important...Now.. I DO know that this will not be good for many here if this becomes an industry standard to combat resale....IMHO..they should do SOMETHING before thier system becomes unworkable..

Salespeople are affected by what? Who cares if resales have any effect whatsoever on their over-priced product. I wish more people knew about TUG and ebay.

Industry info--get it here and be MORE INFORMED.

Equity in timeshare is an oxymoron. What equity? Try to use your timeshare ownerships to apply for a mortgage or a car loan. Better to have the $30K you spent on the timeshare in the bank.

Timeshare has been around for more than 35 years (don't know how long), and we have owned for almost 30 years. Not one timeshare has retained its value of any I know about. What makes today different from then? It's a ridiculous "investment" to pay retail.

You care a little too much about the developers.

Do you feel the same about loss of value on a used car? Do you feel something has to be done to retain equity in that car? The bank would be a lot more impressed, credit-worthy wise, if you told them you own, outright, a used 2003 BMW than telling them you own 10 timeshares in Myrtle Beach.

Another point you made was the loss of the maximum use for resale buyers. That would HURT resale value. You are not looking at the value you would have, if you tried to sell a unit that had limited use for your buyer. I thought you were concerned about the low price of timeshare, yet you want to reduce the value even more by taking away resale buyers' rights.

There is more than one way to look at a situation such as this one. I am sick and tired of developers devaluing resale. And why are you complaining about the devaluing of timeshares? What reason do you have for being upset, unless you are a salesperson yourself, or you are bitter that you paid more for the privilege of owning? Why don't you just buy a resale for pennies and enjoy it.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Signs of desperation.

Can you imagine a scenario in which you would buy a car from a dealer. But if you ever wanted to sell the car, the new buyer would have to bring the car back to the dealer, at which point the dealer would remove the stereo, the seats, the heater, replace the existing tires with worn-out tires, scratch the paint and dent the doors.

Yet timeshare folks seem to thing that's a splendid business model.

 

[timeos2]

Make the system fair and open and it would heal itself

Yes I agree that the sales guys could be giving misleading info,but in getting industry info.. If not them then who??They are the ones most impacted from the (ebay..resale problem)I do care because Equity in anything one owns is important...Now.. I DO know that this will not be good for many here if this becomes an industry standard to combat resale....IMHO..they should do SOMETHING before thier system becomes unworkable..

Sally - the existing system is fatally flawed, it IS unworkable and the only really surprising thing is that, so far, developers have managed to keep selling at prices hundreds of times over resale - that cannot continue forever.

I agree that there needs to be steps taken to improve resale value for all timeshares. But tying value to method of original purchase - and trying to "punish" those who get a far better, market based price while doing the favor for the existing owner of taking over the obligation, is not anymore viable than the current system of free for all. There are, and always will be now, far more resales than there could ever be new, Developer units to sell so the answer has to create a reasonable market for all those resales and not try to reward a small group of buyers who choose to pay far too much for the product. They have that right of course but they do not have any right to reduce resale values for those that already own (and many paid that bloated retail amount).

Make things fair and it would work it self out over time. Try to stack the deck for one group or another and you see what the result is in our current, virtually collapsed timeshare market across the board - retail & resale.

 

[timeos2]

What a horrible approach of thinking by the resorts to suggest taking benefits away instead of using the opportunity to increase value at the specific resorts. The resorts could focus on improving vacations by their owners and visitors by offering increased value during their stay by offering additional services. If they don't currently offer WIFI, maybe they should. If they charge for laundry, make it free, etc.
This is my humble opinion and it seems to be a more proactive business strategy then decreasing benefits.

Exactly. The resorts should be taking the steps to make ownership desirable not look for ways to punish buyers of the "wrong" type. I have owned at resorts that use that philosophy and are successfully navigating the current downturn. And they are going to ready when the tide finally turns to get better prices for a competitive resort regardless of physical age. Create & maintain value is the key.

 

[beach.bar.bob]

I started to think about how a resort could safegaurd itself from this brutal economic resale problem..I guess getting any m. fee is better then not getting one ,thus the value of the resale market.. On our latest trip to southern florida I talked to the sales guys about how the resale market is ruining the equity in thier product.The 3 person team that crowded me ,said thier sales were down and the corporation (well known) had soon to be released info on this very topic..I managed to wrangle a hint out of them of what this news was.The top sales guy(from what I could tell) said he thinks it has something to do with a unit placement guarantee for original retail buyers and new retail owners. vs resale contracts..I asked if he thought that was unfair..his response was ..what do these people expect for a buck on ebay?? I found this solution if implemented a fair reward for the owners that have spent the higher dollar amount...ie...resale contract owners get the units that get the most complaints...

Welcome back Sally...

I don't think it's a "brutal resale problem" (who's it brutal for BTW? I see it as opportunity)... it's basic economics.
Supply and Demand. Clearly, much of this issue stems from the recent economic unpleasantness...or the Great Recession if you will. Right now there is a seemingly endless supply and not enough demand.

As ran-ran suggested the resorts need to work on improving demand via a better value proposition to their customers. Better value, more demand. More demand, higher prices. More demand, fewer resales. More demand, less resale inventory, more developer sales.

If in fact, the developers CARED about the equity in their product they could proactively reduce supply...exercise first right of refusal, actively purchase cheap resales and place back into developer inventory, etc. Oops, the problem with that thought process is that once you buy it, it's the equity in your product ... I'm going to guess they really don't care to much about that! As Denise points out, a timeshare purchase is not an equity investment...it's it's prepaying for (hopefully) a long stream of great vacations slightly(?) burdened with an ongoing expense commitment.

The developers don't care about the equity in the product we've already purchased...they care about selling more product retail. The problem they have with the resale market it that it drags down retail sales...not that it decreases equity. They think the shortcut to increasing retail sales is to reduce the value of a resale unit (how much lower than a $1 can it get?) by tricking up the product in the false hopes it will spur demand. The hope is that these tricks will be perceived as real value add.

IMO, changing the "rules" of how the product can be used via various tricks is futile. It creates a second class of owners...alienating them. Too much BS surrounding usage for current owners (resales owners are in fact current owners who pay MF's and utilize the resort) will cause owners to react negatively, quit supporting the product and in the end reducing demand and increasing supply as they dump their units. Not to mention the ill will (i.e., demand reducing marketing spin) created on various forums such as this.

The key to the resorts' success is:

1) Happy, satisfied owners:

• Who pay their MF every year
• Enjoy the experience so much they want to own more of the product
• Regularly utilize the product (or exchange to others that use) thus support the daily resort operations
• Tell friends, relatives, TUGgers, etc. about the wonderful product promoting usage and sales

2) "Heads in beds" every nite - keeping the resort at high utilization levels on a consistent basis...whether owners, exchangers, retail renters, etc.

• They help support the daily operations of the resort
• Non-owners become potential owners...especially if they end up loving the product - Nothing improves sales like satisfied customers
• Tell friends, relatives, TUGgers, etc. about the wonderful product promoting usage and sales

JMHO

Safe travels.

bbb

 

[rickandcindy23]

Ebay currently has over 2,500 timeshares for sale, many of which will not have a buyer.

Postcard companies took $3-4K from most of those 2,500 timeshares, just to get rid of the darned things.

Postcard companies and upfront-fee companies are devaluing timeshares more than anyone else. Once people find out their timeshare has no value, and no one wants to buy it, they are sick.

Yeah, take away the rights of the new owners and watch the value of those timeshares go even lower. Smart thing for the salespeople to discuss as a good option for more sales. They are moronic!

I hate Wyndham as a resale owner. As a Wyndham VIP, I still enjoy great benefits, but I have both resale and Wyndham VIP. I see the difference. Look at the values of Wyndham points. Everyone knows Wyndham hates resale buyers, and corporate is thinking of every way possible to make resale buyers suffer. You don't get Gold or Platinum with a resale purchase. Smart move. You can get Wyn points free on ebay, zero closing costs. The points used to be a lot more expensive than they are now. Their devaluing of resale benefits has really worked! Yeah, buying resale now is a risk, because they could double your costs of booking. Look what they did to EOY contracts with Club Wyndham fees.

Sleazy slimy industry.

 

[Carolinian]

There are a number of developers out there who sell floating or points products who already take some benefits away from resale purchasers. This is not a new approach at all. That is one of the reasons I only own at resorts that are 1) fixed week / fixed unit where no one can play games with what you have, and 2) resorts with member-controlled HOA boards where the developer or an overbearing management company cannot keep everything under their thumb.

But there are also a few good developers out there, and one of them is the very first timeshare developer, Hapimag, who started the whole timeshare industry. While I don't care for their points-based approach to ownership, I do commend them on the policy they have always had of buying back any Hapimag ownership after a set number of years for a set percentage of the then current retail price. As I recall, the percentage is somewhere around forty or fifty percent. In a slow market some owners who want to sell back may have to sit on a waiting list for a year or two, but when their turn comes, Hapimag does what they promised. What that means is that you don't see Hapimag on eBay (even the European versions) at $1 starting bids, and in fact to find a resale, you have to expect to shell out four figures.

 

[PortableTech]

I started to think about how a resort could safegaurd itself from this brutal economic resale problem..I guess getting any m. fee is better then not getting one ,thus the value of the resale market.. On our latest trip to southern florida I talked to the sales guys about how the resale market is ruining the equity in thier product.The 3 person team that crowded me ,said thier sales were down and the corporation (well known) had soon to be released info on this very topic..I managed to wrangle a hint out of them of what this news was.The top sales guy(from what I could tell) said he thinks it has something to do with a unit placement guarantee for original retail buyers and new retail owners. vs resale contracts..I asked if he thought that was unfair..his response was ..what do these people expect for a buck on ebay?? I found this solution if implemented a fair reward for the owners that have spent the higher dollar amount...ie...resale contract owners get the units that get the most complaints...

So, I buy a new car with a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty on it. I then sell it, but since it's value has decreased for whatever reason, I can only sell it for 10% of its value.. But half the warranty is left... Should the automaker be allowed to ignore the warranty and just claim, what do they expect for paying only 10% of the retail cost...

-- PortableTech

 

[PortableTech]

As for what can a resort do to increase what they feel is an unfairly low value of the resort. I can think of one very simple and sure fire way to do it.

Institute a buy back/rofr program at what they feel is a fair resale price. Resale prices will then revolve around that.

It is hard to claim a high value of your resort when you tell your members that you are unwilling to take a free deedback with the owner paying all the fees.

-- PortableTech

 

[puppymommo]

I hate Wyndham as a resale owner.

Wyndham hates resale buyers, and corporate is thinking of every way possible to make resale buyers suffer.

In what ways does Wyndham discriminate against resale owners except in regards to VIP? Of course, I realize they can always change things for their benefit at any time.

As a resale owner also, I've always heard (and experienced) "points are points". What am I missing?

 

[rickandcindy23]

That isn't enough? I think all benefits should transfer. The original owner paid!

I bought over 1 million points resale and paid quite a bit for them three years ago. The seller said he had Platinum VIP, and I was hoping it would transfer to us, and so was he. That was close to the time that Wyndham decided to devalue resales. There is a big difference between those points and our true Platinum VIP.

But that isn't enough for you? You think it's fair that Wyndham makes a premium and then devalues resales in such a way? Just because it's a bargain, is it really worthy of even the maintenance fees?

That's what we are talking about here--the devaluing of resales by developers who do not extend the same benefits to the resale buyer. It's insane!

Why can no one see that devaluing the ownership of resale purchases also devalues the product in general.

 

[PortableTech]

Perhaps the salesmen are just not presenting the correct breakdown of costs. Perhaps it should go something like this

New Timeshare Cost
---------------------------
$10,000 - Membership in our VIP Program
$ 5,000 - Downpayment for new car for my boss
$ 2,500 - My Comission
$ 1,000 - New Member fee for the Club
$ 750 - Closing Fees
$ 500 - Cost of your new property
------------
$19,250 - Total Cost for your new timeshare in our program

Now you understand that only the property is transferable, and the rest is lost of you sell the property correct?

Great, sign right here and we will get you squared away.

....
...
..

On second thought, I just don't see this style of sales working that well for the sales people

-- PortableTech

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Why can no one see that devaluing the ownership of resale purchases also devalues the product in general.

It's not that no one sees that. But for most people it gets buried in the talk and hype.

Using my analogy of the car above, consider two cars:

• Car A:
  Requires someone who buys they car used must bring the car to a dealer and have the stereo, heater, AC, windshield wipers, spare tire, wheels, power steering, ABS, and seats removed.

• Car B:
  Exactly identical to Car A, except that the owner is free to sell it as is and transfer the new car warranty along with it.

Isn't Car B clearly more valuable than Car A?

By purposely destroying the value of previously sold inventory, the value of the entire product is diminished, both new and resale.

 

[prickler]

If you want a timeshare with equity, buy at the Grandview in Las Vegas. It's right on the strip, only 5 miles from the center of the action. So when the strip expands and developers want to move in and buy you out, you'll be rolling in money!! :hysterical:

Seriously, I was told this by a salesman on my first timeshare presentation at the Grandview in Las Vegas. If I knew then what I know now I would have given him a piece of my mind for being such a low life snake.

Moral of the story. Salesman are deceitful and timeshares have very little residual value with respect to retail prices.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Isn't Car B clearly more valuable than Car A?

By purposely destroying the value of previously sold inventory, the value of the entire product is diminished, both new and resale.

Yes, that's what I am talking about. It seems developers cannot see the devaluing of their product with less benefits to the resale buyer is hurting sales and resale values. It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's ridiculous and stupid. These salespeople are selling benefits to the buyer and saying it's a great investment. Most great investments have some resale value.

We own ten weeks at Myrtle Beach, at two different resorts. I don't think a loan underwriter for a mortgage company would consider those as an asset--more likely a liability.

 

[sally13]

the problem...

is resales are killing the percieved value of all timeshares..thus effecting sales of all types.The new computer ways of selling something now are huge enough in number(along with the current bad economic cycle)that the $^$#$ has hit the fan in the upper sales offices..I do think they are seriously thinking that in order to get at least some of thier pricing power back they have to be brutal on resale contract owners..the war on the bragging resale contract owner has started..As I commented on the new units going up next to the busy interstate,the sales guy said that if I was an original retail contract owner or new retail buyer ,we would NEVER be placed in the LESSER UNITS...he said corporate has not finalized the new changes but expects the word in days,along with other changes that resale buyers are not going to like..like I said ANYTHING of value can be considered an investment..hey look at commodities in the 90's..they were in the dustbin of investments...don't look now but they are on the top of all economic advisers recommendations 20 years later....oh and Denise..welome to you too!!thanks bbb you are kind!!