RCI Class Action

[Pit]

Not sure if this link was previously posted (I couldn't find it anywhere).

Seems like there are six law firms working together on this. They have a form you can fill in online to share your own experiences.

http://www.rciclassaction.com

 

[dougp26364]

Good link. It will be interesting to follow the progress of this case. I've put the link in my favorites file to follow up on the process as it moves along.

 

[natanya86]

I agree...

I have been looking to exchange our week for a week somewhere on the NC or SC coast. Now, if I want to book it as an extra vacation there are numerous choices, but absolutely none to exchange. I am looking at the middle of May - not really the prime vacation time. I called RCI and spoke with someone who told me that the units offered for rent are offered by the properties not by individuals who have deposited them. I could believe that if we were talking about a few units. But we are talking about 3 pages with multiple listings for each property, stretching from Atlantic Beach to Myrtle.
I am about ready to dump RCI and try II.

 

[Carol C]

I never read the text of the lawsuit but I've heard it referred to. Even though I've had my challenges with RCI trading, I don't see how making a team of lawyers rich is going to do anything positive for RCI members. Except maybe result in increased spikes in exchange and other RCI fees, since their legal costs if they lose will be passed along to we member/consumers.

Just food for thought.

 

[dougp26364]

I never read the text of the lawsuit but I've heard it referred to. Even though I've had my challenges with RCI trading, I don't see how making a team of lawyers rich is going to do anything positive for RCI members. Except maybe result in increased spikes in exchange and other RCI fees, since their legal costs if they lose will be passed along to we member/consumers.

Just food for thought.

So what you're saying is it's better to allow RCI to keep ripping off all it's members now by taking thier weeks and renting them out rather than ripping them off by passing along legal costs to members but giving them the units deposited for exchange as exchanges rather than rentals? Seems as if you're paying for it one way or the other.

Maybe higher members fee's exchanges fees, keeping in mind RCI needs to stay competitive with I.I. or risk losing business to I.I. or, continued higher fee's by having to rent the unit you want rather than exchange for the unit you want like your suppose to be able to do through an exchange company. I guess I'll risk potential higher fee's rather than risk never being able to get a decent exchange again through RCI.

As it is, until RCI changes, the two units I have through RCI I won't deposit for exchange. The only reason a membership will be maintained at all is because it's built into the HGVC system.

 

[PerryM]

Lawyer in the sewer?

There are many urban legends that folks believe in:


Alligators in the sewer:
This one is spread by folks who still believe in the tooth fairy and the Drive By Media. Sure kids flush baby alligators and gold fish down the toilet but we all know this legend is false.


Corporations pay taxes:
Politicians start this one – they know we are envy driven and a large corporation has way to many rich folks so they need to pay more taxes. Of course since all the competing firms pay taxes too they just all pass on the expense to the consumer. But each year “Windfall profits need windfall taxes” is the cry from the politicians (mostly lawyers) who all know the money is just taken out of your back pocket in a sneaky way.


Class action lawsuits correct wrongs:
This one I love to watch. In the case of RCI they have NO competition – II is a pipsqueak and add up all the other exchange companies and they amount for about 1/2 of RCI – that’s all of them combined!

The lawyers and courts know what this is all about – welfare for the legal community. This is easy money for the court judges, the courts themselves, the clerks, the cops who man the court buildings and of course the rich lawyers for the plaintive and defendant.

RCI has contingency plans and if there is a verdict against them they have already made the changes – years earlier. Any costs will be born by members of RCI – we all know this.

The lawsuit has a life of it’s own – it will continue to rack up millions of dollars that we all know will be paid by the folks who use RCI.


Conclusion:
Taxing corporations is a fairytale so are corporate lawsuits – both are perpetrated by lawyers. Lawyers crate these urban legends hoping to capitalize on our envy.

If you don’t like RCI the solutions are very simple – rent or find another exchange company or sell the timeshare and buy one that uses II or another exchange company. Depending on the lawyers to fix your problem is just going to cost you money and make them rich.

I think we should replace the “Alligator in the sewer" ledgend with "Lawyer in the sewer” somehow it seems more fitting.

 

[Hoc]

I assume that you all realize that the result of this action will be something like all RCI members getting a 20 percent discount on one year's future RCI renewal fees, plus payment of a million or so in attorneys' fees.

 

[Carolinian]

The key is the injunctive relief to stop the defendant from engaging in certain practices in the future, in this case renting exchange deposits to the general public. The usually miniscule money damages from past transgressions is a very minor consideration. I don't mind if the lawyers get rich, and that the money damages won't buy a McDonalds hamburger, as long as a permanent injunction is put in place to bring the rental of exchange deposits to a screaching halt! Hopefully, the terms of the judgment will prohibit RCI retaliating with an increase in fees.

All succesful class actions include some type of injunctive relief to put a stop to the practices that let to the class action suit. The defendant will try to limit the scope of it, and whether or not this class action lawsuit is successful for members will NOT be determined by how much money damages the class members get but by how broad the injunctive relief will be. We have to hope that the lead plaintiffs will not agree to anything that doesn't put a stop to the rentals to the general public from spacebank deposits.

From the beginning of RCI's practices that called for a solution in the courts, I have preferred that the legal challenge be through the Consumer Protection Division of a state Attorney General simply because these guys are paid by government paycheck and therefore have no tempation to agree to injunctive relief that is too narrow just to stirke a deal for legal fees. From what I have learned of the RCI class action, one of the lead plaintiffs is in this for reform not money for himself, and that should be a brake on lawyers cutting a deal that doesn't do justice for RCI's members. From what I am told, at least one of the principle lawyers working on the case is also a timesharer himself and seriously interested in meaningful reform. This is what gives hope that we will not see a backroom deal that trades too narrow injunctive relief for big legal fees.

I never read the text of the lawsuit but I've heard it referred to. Even though I've had my challenges with RCI trading, I don't see how making a team of lawyers rich is going to do anything positive for RCI members. Except maybe result in increased spikes in exchange and other RCI fees, since their legal costs if they lose will be passed along to we member/consumers.

Just food for thought.

 

[Aldo]

From Wikipedia:

"The Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response sometimes seen in an abducted hostage, in which the hostage can show signs of having feelings of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger (or at least risk) in which the hostage has been placed. Stockholm syndrome is also sometimes discussed in reference to other situations with similar tensions, such as battered person syndrome, rape cases, child abuse cases, and bride kidnapping."


These responses are fascinating. I knew people were emotionally attached to their timeshares, but to seek Stockholm responses?

 

[Carolinian]

Many of those resorts are sold out resorts. If is very unlikely that HOA's even have the inventory in summer to do what RCI is saying, and from what I know of HOA's on the OBX, it is also highly unlikely that they would give any such weeks they have to RCI for rental.

It would be interesting to take the list of availible rentals and call the resorts and ask them where that inventory came from.

In the middle of May, the resorts are likely to be full, and there will be more demand than supply, but the rentals you are seeing are likely to mostly be exchange deposits. Where inventory placed with RCI for rental mostly comes from seems to be resorts still in developer sales. For those resorts, these may genuinely be resort inventory given for rental.

I have been looking to exchange our week for a week somewhere on the NC or SC coast. Now, if I want to book it as an extra vacation there are numerous choices, but absolutely none to exchange. I am looking at the middle of May - not really the prime vacation time. I called RCI and spoke with someone who told me that the units offered for rent are offered by the properties not by individuals who have deposited them. I could believe that if we were talking about a few units. But we are talking about 3 pages with multiple listings for each property, stretching from Atlantic Beach to Myrtle.
I am about ready to dump RCI and try II.

 

[Carolinian]

Touche! You have hit the nail on the head.

From Wikipedia:

"The Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response sometimes seen in an abducted hostage, in which the hostage can show signs of having feelings of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger (or at least risk) in which the hostage has been placed. Stockholm syndrome is also sometimes discussed in reference to other situations with similar tensions, such as battered person syndrome, rape cases, child abuse cases, and bride kidnapping."


These responses are fascinating. I knew people were emotionally attached to their timeshares, but to seek Stockholm responses?

 

[Aldo]

We have to hope that the lead plaintiffs will not agree to anything that doesn't put a stop to the rentals to the general public from spacebank deposits.

Exactly.

Amazing to read the responses on this thread.

People are cynical about the larger structural and economic issues surrounding American jurisprudence. Understandably so.

But as a result of that, some would rather be told, "No you can't exchange into this resort but yes you can rent it out on Snaptravel," rather than even attempt to achieve fairness and equity all around. It's a cynical and sad response.


I want to make a flying conjecture here. I suspect that in many individuals, Stockholm-type responses probably begin to set in the moment they realize that they paid $15,000 for something they could buy for a buckfitty on Ebay. By the time they realize that they CAN'T trade into anywhere anytime, the syndrome is already well established. By the time they realize the spacebank is getting skimmed for rentals, Stockholm-type responses would be a habitual response with regards to their timeshare ownership.

I guess it's hard to admit to yourself that others can be in a position to do you harm and get away with it. Powerlessness is hard to accept. Affinity becomes a defense.

 

[stevedmatt]

Playing devil's advocate....

Is it at all possible that these resorts have a rental pool that the owners turn their week into the the resort uses RCI as an outlet to rent these weeks?

Not sure I believe this but is it possible?

 

[dmharris]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7555529

Is this RCI the same RCI? Rosenbaum Cunningham International bought illegal green cards and hired illegal aliens to service resorts and restaurants. I heard this on NPR on Feb. 22.

 

[BocaBum99]

I don't believe in conspiracy theories. I believe that people do what's in their best interests. I believe that RCI may be cheating. But, that cheating is probably relatively small in relation to the overall exchange. In other words, not material.

I further believe that a rental model is a far superior timeshare exchange model. Rent you unit out, rent another one in it's place. I think RCI just figured out that weeks based exchange is not as good as a rental model. It's time for timesharing people to consider that this could be true. I've believed it from the day I started in timesharing and I continue to believe even more today now that I have hard facts and experiences.

What a rental model will do is expose the falsely high trading power that is granted to certain resorts. If a unit deserved high trading power, then it should be rentable for a high amount. Then, those rents can be applied toward another rental. But, if it has high trading power and it can't be rented for much, then it's trading power is falsely high due to the inefficient nature of how supply and demand is injected into the exchange system.

You can hire as many lawyers as you want and start as many legal actions as suits your fancy. However, it won't change the fact that rentals will become more prevalent, RCI will continue to raise their fees and your timeshare will live and die by the value it commands in the rental market.

The new TUG advice should be "buy where you intend to use or where your unit can command a high rental return. Exchanging is a bonus that you should do when you can to trade up or don't mind a trade down for convenience."

 

[JLB]

It is nice to see it precisely and succinctly worded.

As I have said before, I was contacted early on by one of the investigators, likely because of my SW Florida in January thread. I have accumulated data since RCI.com began in 1997 and recorded it since 3/27/2002. Thousands of searches for the same area the same timeframe, every day, for several years.

Yes, my data documents a decline in availability, especially the better resorts. I have pursued the reason.

Do you think anyone else, anywhere, has that kind of data?

So, why do you think it is that no one has followed up with me?

 

[BocaBum99]

Playing devil's advocate....

Is it at all possible that these resorts have a rental pool that the owners turn their week into the the resort uses RCI as an outlet to rent these weeks?

Not sure I believe this but is it possible?

Not only is it possible, I see tons of evidence of it. I've visited about 50-60 resorts in Hawaii over the past several months. Nearly all of them have a rental program of some type. In addition, several of the independent exchange companies rent weeks on behalf of owners and the resorts. When the exchange company is renting developer weeks, then that is inventory that no longer is injected into the exchange company. This used to be used to offset the exchange imbalance created when certain people are offered bonus weeks and other dog weeks go unused or are sold off as last calls.

Take a look at HTSE. A local favorite exchange company for Hawaii. If you look at their availability for rentals, the best stuff is being rented and NOT available for exchange. Why is that? Because owners of prime weeks have decided that they can get a better value renting their unit than exchanging it.

The sooner we as a timesharing community acknowledge that timeshare rentals is the wave of the future, the faster we can take action to adjust our timeshare portfolios to reflect this macrolevel trend.

 

[Aldo]

Boca,

I'm not disputing your generalized stance with regards the interplay of free markets, but ultimately all that is also immaterial to the specific issues and charges, or, at best, extremely tenuously related. Certainly, membership in the RCI spacebank is not represented in such a fashion. Not even remotely.

 

[BocaBum99]

Do you think anyone else, anywhere, has that kind of data?

So, why do you think it is that no one has followed up with me?

Because your data is not valuable to them. Your data shows that the bullet is in the victim. They already know that the victim is dead. What they are looking for is a smoking gun that can prove who did it. You, yourself, have stated in the past that the data is inconclusive.

Many here believe it is RCI that caused the decline. I believe that the market has decided it prefers a rental model over an exchange model and that the weeks exchange model is having it comeuppance. Slowly, but surely.

 

[Aldo]

Playing devil's advocate....

Is it at all possible that these resorts have a rental pool that the owners turn their week into the the resort uses RCI as an outlet to rent these weeks?

Not sure I believe this but is it possible?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking if it's possible that weeks that people want to rent out are getting rented out?

One should hope so.


But that isn't what this lawsuit is about. It's about weeks deposited into the spacebank.

 

[BocaBum99]

Boca,

I'm not disputing your generalized stance with regards the interplay of free markets, but ultimately all that is also immaterial to the specific issues and charges, or, at best, extremely tenuously related. Certainly, membership in the RCI spacebank is not represented in such a fashion. Not even remotely.

I don't agree. If you don't have a smoking gun that proves RCI is stealing from the spacebank, then I have an alternate theory for why exchange availability is in decline. That makes it directly relevant.

Others simply want to lynch RCI and convict them of wholesale stealing from the spacebank. I can understand why. I don't like RCI either. I hardly use them anymore. But, I feel pretty strongly that much of the decline in exchange availability can be directly attibutable to legitimate business practices and timeshare owners desire to seek alternatives to RCI.

 

[dougp26364]

So if a shooting occurs but the gun is not found, does that mean that the shooting did not occur?

Appearently there is enough evidence to bring this to the courts attention. It there is not sufficeint evidence to pursue the case, the court will dismiss it. Perhaps the attornies are hoping for a big cash settlement and nothing more. I'd like to believe that the plantiff's are looking to correct an big problem with RCI that I.I. does not seem to have. Lack of exchange inventory but more than enough rental inventory. After all, I am not an RCI member to rent out timeshares but the exchange them.

In this past year or two, I've seen multiple posts about declining exchange opportunities but increasing rental opportunities to both members and the public. I've also seen people complaining that their exchanges were cancelled last minute or, they arrive at the resort to find that the resort is overbooked. When I started exchanging in '99 I did not notice these issues.

Something has changed the landscape drastically. Specifically with RCI. The problem with RCI is they are not transparent. They hide what their deposits are, where the rental inventory comes from and why. If they have kept accurate records indicating that ALL of the rental inventory is from points deposits used for services or rentals obtained from HOA's, it will be very easy for them to prove and get this case dismissed. If, however, they've cooked the books to mingled exchange deposits with rental inventory, then this case will go forward, the lawyers will make money and, hopefully, exchange deposits will remain in the exchange inventory and not the rental inventory.

Keep in mind that, if RCI is renting out exchange deposits to make an extra buck at timeshare owners expense, this will eventually make timeshare ownership look so bad that the entire thing collapses like a house of cards. If that happens, then you had better either own where you want to go or own in a system that has adaquate locations for internal exchanges. I fear the timesharing is on thin ice thanks to the evaporation of exchange possibilities.

 

[natanya86]

In the middle of May, the resorts are likely to be full, and there will be more demand than supply, but the rentals you are seeing are likely to mostly be exchange deposits. Where inventory placed with RCI for rental mostly comes from seems to be resorts still in developer sales. For those resorts, these may genuinely be resort inventory given for rental.

I agree. Most of the rentals are not new developments. In fact 1 only recognize 1 listed in Myrtle Beach as new, the others have been around for years.

 

[Carolinian]

No resort on the Outer Banks does that. Only one resort is still in developer sales. Yet the other resorts have weeks showing up on RCI rental sites, that come from only one place - member exchange deposits.

Playing devil's advocate....

Is it at all possible that these resorts have a rental pool that the owners turn their week into the the resort uses RCI as an outlet to rent these weeks?

Not sure I believe this but is it possible?

 

[Carolinian]

Longtime TUG poster Bootleg, an RCI employee who had access to RCI's computers, followed some of these prime week rentals back to the source and found that they were member exchange deposits that had nothing to do with cruises, points for deposit, etc., just straight out exchange deposits.

Once they get to seriously turning over rocks in discovery, IMHO RCI is going to cry uncle!

Looting exchange deposits for rental to the general public cannot by any stretch of the imagination be called ''legitimate business practices''. It more resembles the business practices of Al Capone.

I don't agree. If you don't have a smoking gun that proves RCI is stealing from the spacebank, then I have an alternate theory for why exchange availability is in decline. That makes it directly relevant.

Others simply want to lynch RCI and convict them of wholesale stealing from the spacebank. I can understand why. I don't like RCI either. I hardly use them anymore. But, I feel pretty strongly that much of the decline in exchange availability can be directly attibutable to legitimate business practices and timeshare owners desire to seek alternatives to RCI.