Resale Cost vs MF Cost

[TravelTime]

I have calculated cost per SO for the mandatory resorts and it seems that SVV is more expensive than WKOVRN OF 2 bedroom. Kierkland is a good deal for Star Options based on MFs if you buy high season.

 

[DeniseM]

I have calculated cost per SO for the mandatory resorts and it seems that SVV is more expensive than WKOVRN OF 2 bedroom.

Yes and no - you can often get SVV deeds for very cheap or free.

WKV is the best MF value, if you can afford the upfront cost, and that is why SVV and WKV are usually recommended as the best Staroptions traders.

 

[TravelTime]

Yes and no - you can often get SVV deeds for very cheap or free.

WKV is the best MF value, if you can afford the upfront cost, and that is why SVV and WKV are usually recommended as the best Staroptions traders.

You can get SVV off season deeds very cheap but not high season. Plus I would not my home resort in Orlando just to try to save a little in upfront costs but pay more in MFs. I think WKOVRN 2 BR OF is a great value with 176K SOs. The upfront fee is high but reasonable, it is possible to book into fairly easily, it rents well if you can’t use it, it is a lock off, and it comes with a ton of StarOptions. The MF is high so it’s not for everyone. I think WKOVRN is better than WVOVR because it requires less upfront for more SOs. Also OV in WKOVR is a crap shoot while there are very few OF units at the south property.

 

[DeniseM]

TravelTime - You are comparing apples and oranges here - the strategy for buying a Staroption Trader is different than buying a Home Resort. If you are buying a trader, it doesn't matter what resort the Staroptions come from. It doesn't make financial sense to use an OF week on Maui for a trader - when less expensive Staroptions will work exactly the same.

You can buy the same number of SO's at SVV, for significantly less than WKV. For some people, a less expensive purchase price is more attractive than a lower maintenance fee.

I think WKOVRN is better than WVOVR because it requires less upfront for more SOs.

Not clear on what you are saying here. Are you saying that OF in the North phase sells for less then OV in the South phase? That doesn't sound right.

If I were going to buy another week on Maui, I would only buy a south phase, ocean front center, week - they have far superior views than OF North, and a lower MF, than OF Deluxe or OF North.

South OF Center - $2,384
North OF - $2,641
South OF Deluxe - $3,271

 

[TravelTime]

TravelTime - You are mixing apples and oranges here - the strategy for buying a Staroption Trader is different than buying a Home Resort. If you are buying a trader, it doesn't matter what resort the Staroptions come from. It doesn't make financial sense to use an OF week on Maui for a trader - when less expensive Staroptions will work exactly the same.

You can buy the same number of SO's at SVV, for significantly less than WKV. For some people, a less expensive purchase price is more attractive than a lower maintenance fee.



Not clear on what you are saying here. Are you saying that OF in the North phase sells for less then OV in the South phase? That doesn't sound right.

If I were going to buy another week on Maui, I would only buy a south phase, ocean front center, week - they have far superior views than OF North, and a lower MF, than OF Deluxe or OF North.

South OF Center - $2,384
North OF - $2,641
South OF Deluxe - $3,271

I am not proposing that someone should buy WKOVRN as a trader. I am just pointing out that its MF per SO is cheaper than almost any other mandatory resort except WKR so using it elsewhere once you own it is not a dumb idea. North is a cost effective trader when used for other expensive SO properties in Hawaii, Harborside and St John and not primarily the cheap Westins. I know you do not buy Maui for SOs or as a trader. My point is that SVV is not a good trader either because it is expensive based on MFs per SO. Only WKR has low MFs per SO for a mandatory property but it is expensive to buy based on upfront costs. All I am saying is I would not buy SVV as a trader. I do not see it as a good home resort or as a cheap trader. I do not believe in buying traders to begin with anyway because you lose control and it is like playing the lottery. But I think Vistana is a bit different, although I see SOs as a bonus, not as a reason to buy a specific home resort. Thank you David for pointing out that this is the wrong place to discuss this. I am just responding to Denise’s question.

 

[DeniseM]

The MF per SO and the upfront cost is cheaper for North OF than for South OF even though the total MF is higher on north than south but you get significantly more SOs with north.

This is simply not true - the Staroptions are the SAME for the North and South and Nanea:

2 Bedroom
IV/RV = 148,100
OV = 148,100
OF = 176,700

I do not know SVV’s upfront costs but I doubt it is cheap for Platinum season.

If you don't know - why are you debating this? SVV is cheaper than WKV for the same number of Staroptions. So maybe you wouldn't buy it, but for people who want a SO trader, with a low upfront cost - it's an option.

 

[TravelTime]

This is simply not true - the Staroptions are the SAME for the North and South and Nanea:

2 Bedroom
IV/RV = 148,100
OV = 148,100
OF = 176,700



If you don't know - why are you debating this? SVV is cheaper than WKV for the same number of Staroptions. So maybe you wouldn't buy it, but for people who want a SO trader, with a low upfront cost - it's an option.

I just realized I was not thinking clearly when I posted and the SOs are the same for South and North OF - not sure why I forgot such an obvious thing. I was about to correct my post but you already responded. I am not debating it, just presenting another viewpoint. I think it is false that SVV is so cheap and good to buy for SOs. You get approx the following SOs per $1 of MF:

WKOVRN OF: 69
WKOVR OFC: 74
WKOVR OFD: 54
SVV Platinum: 60 (this might be going down since I used 2018 MF for SVV and 2019 MF in calculation for WKOVR and WKOVRN)

Yes, the upfront costs are a lot higher for OFC south and a lot lower for SVV but once you own, it seems okay to use almost any SOs across the Vistana system. I did the calculations and WKR is on the cheaper end and Princeville, St John and Harborside are on the more expensive end for MFs. If you do not buy an OF or Platinum week, then you are paying significantly more for SOs than my rough calculations. I would not use a Hawaii property to stay at SVV, obviously and I probably would not use it for staying in low cost areas either. My point was it is not a bad idea if you lock off a WKOVRN OF property and use the leftover SOs at St John, Princeville or Harborside because the MFs are in the same range or more expensive. Obviously, that is not why anyone should buy in Hawaii but it could make sense if you aren’t going to rent out the studio portion and you enjoy the other locations. The other point is that while SVV may seem cheap on the surface because the total MF outlay is lower, it is actually more expensive per SO than some of the Hawaii properties. That was an eye opener for me.

 

[DeniseM]

Your point of view is welcome - but your numbers [were] incorrect, and the numbers are what I [was] trying to clarify in my previous posts.

 

[TravelTime]

Not sure how my numbers can be wrong. I just divided number of StarOptions for the highest season or best unit (oceanfront or Platinum season) by the maintenance fee to come up with SOs per $1 of MF to compare the cost effectiveness across resorts. I know the upfront costs vary tremendously as well as the underlying market value of the resorts but that was not the purpose of what I was looking at.

 

[DeniseM]

Your numbers were wrong, because you kept saying that WKORV-N was worth far more Staroptions, so that the cost per Staroption was less. It appears that you have corrected that now. I haven't checked the math myself, but your new numbers look more reasonable.

 

[pgizzi]

TravelTime - You are comparing apples and oranges here - the strategy for buying a Staroption Trader is different than buying a Home Resort. If you are buying a trader, it doesn't matter what resort the Staroptions come from. It doesn't make financial sense to use an OF week on Maui for a trader - when less expensive Staroptions will work exactly the same.

You can buy the same number of SO's at SVV, for significantly less than WKV. For some people, a less expensive purchase price is more attractive than a lower maintenance fee.



Not clear on what you are saying here. Are you saying that OF in the North phase sells for less then OV in the South phase? That doesn't sound right.

If I were going to buy another week on Maui, I would only buy a south phase, ocean front center, week - they have far superior views than OF North, and a lower MF, than OF Deluxe or OF North.

South OF Center - $2,384
North OF - $2,641
South OF Deluxe - $3,271

In the south building are there more ocean front center units or ocean front deluxe units in total? If I were to buy ocean front deluxe and have to travel in summer or winter break/ spring break for kids am I likely to get either one if I book 12 months out? I would hate to pay an it initial premium plus higher mf for a deluxe if booking it is difficult. Thanks for the help.

 

[DeniseM]

There are more Ocean Front Deluxe - but for me, the maintenance fee is a deal killer.

Also - be aware that the OF Deluxe studio side of the lock-off is around the corner of the building and faces the beach - not the ocean. Some people like this - some do not.

If you are flexible and you make your reservation the instant the reservation window opens at 12 mos., I don't think you will have a problem with summer reservations - because there are lots of summer weeks, and you can book Fri., Sat., or Sun. check-in. (In June and July alone, that's 27 possible check-in dates.)

But winter holidays, like President's week get booked in minutes.

You can't reserve Christmas or New Year's week at all, because they were sold as Event Weeks, and only the owners of those weeks can book them.

 

[dioxide45]

I just realized I was not thinking clearly when I posted and the SOs are the same for South and North OF - not sure why I forgot such an obvious thing. I was about to correct my post but you already responded. I am not debating it, just presenting another viewpoint. I think it is false that SVV is so cheap and good to buy for SOs. You get approx the following SOs per $1 of MF:

WKOVRN OF: 69
WKOVR OFC: 74
WKOVR OFD: 54
SVV Platinum: 60 (this might be going down since I used 2018 MF for SVV and 2019 MF in calculation for WKOVR and WKOVRN)

Yes, the upfront costs are a lot higher for OFC south and a lot lower for SVV but once you own, it seems okay to use almost any SOs across the Vistana system. I did the calculations and WKR is on the cheaper end and Princeville, St John and Harborside are on the more expensive end for MFs. If you do not buy an OF or Platinum week, then you are paying significantly more for SOs than my rough calculations. I would not use a Hawaii property to stay at SVV, obviously and I probably would not use it for staying in low cost areas either. My point was it is not a bad idea if you lock off a WKOVRN OF property and use the leftover SOs at St John, Princeville or Harborside because the MFs are in the same range or more expensive. Obviously, that is not why anyone should buy in Hawaii but it could make sense if you aren’t going to rent out the studio portion and you enjoy the other locations. The other point is that while SVV may seem cheap on the surface because the total MF outlay is lower, it is actually more expensive per SO than some of the Hawaii properties. That was an eye opener for me.

MF / SO is usually described in the MF cost per 1000 StarOptions, so I really can't tell anything from the numbers you have provided. However, from the latest numbers I have are as follows;

SVV Bella (2018) - $14.43 / 1000 SOs
WKV (2017) - $10.61 / 1000 SOs
WKORVN OF (2019) - $14.95 / 1000 SOs

You obviously want the lowest number to have the lowest ongoing cost. However you also need to consider some other factors if you are looking for an SO generator. Maui doesn't seem to make sense for an SO generator because it has a high MF and high ratio compared to the other two more common properties that are to be considered. I also think your WKORV OFD number is still off since it has the same SOs as N but a much higher MF. Maui also has a very high purchase price which would wipe it off any list as an SO generator. Now, comparing SVV to WKV. SVV platinum 81K weeks sell for $1500-$2000 where WKV 148,100 sells for $15,000+. While SVV does have a considerably higher MF/SO ratio, if you factor in the opportunity cost of the additional $13,000, even at only 3%, WKV is now close to the MF to SO ratio of SVV.

WKV is good for many other reasons, as a renter for example, but IMO it isn't the best SO generator. Leave that to SVV. Now let the flames begin!

 

[TravelTime]

MF / SO is usually described in the MF cost per 1000 StarOptions, so I really can't tell anything from the numbers you have provided. However, from the latest numbers I have are as follows;

SVV Bella (2018) - $14.43 / 1000 SOs
WKV (2017) - $10.61 / 1000 SOs
WKORVN OF (2019) - $14.95 / 1000 SOs

You obviously want the lowest number to have the lowest ongoing cost. However you also need to consider some other factors if you are looking for an SO generator. Maui doesn't seem to make sense for an SO generator because it has a high MF and high ratio compared to the other two more common properties that are to be considered. I also think your WKORV OFD number is still off since it has the same SOs as N but a much higher MF. Maui also has a very high purchase price which would wipe it off any list as an SO generator. Now, comparing SVV to WKV. SVV platinum 81K weeks sell for $1500-$2000 where WKV 148,100 sells for $15,000+. While SVV does have a considerably higher MF/SO ratio, if you factor in the opportunity cost of the additional $13,000, even at only 3%, WKV is now close to the MF to SO ratio of SVV.

WKV is good for many other reasons, as a renter for example, but IMO it isn't the best SO generator. Leave that to SVV. Now let the flames begin!

I calculated SOs per $1. The end results of your calculations and my calculations are almost the same directionally. Probably rounding errors of some sort in that I may be using MFs that are slightly off. I took the 2018 MFs I found on Redweek for SVV and you are using Bella. I used Denise’s numbers for WKOVR and WKOVRN.

Anyway, my point is that the MF per SO is not that much more expensive for Maui OF vs Orlando. That’s all. On TUG, people keep saying it is so expensive and I see it slightly differently for this reason. However, I agree that WKV is definitely a lot cheaper but I do believe in the “buy where you want to go” philosophy. BTW, I noticed WKR had a bigger increase this year than WKOVRN.

 

[pgizzi]

There are more Ocean Front Deluxe - but for me, the maintenance fee is a deal killer.

Also - be aware that the OF Deluxe studio side of the lock-off is around the corner of the building and faces the beach - not the ocean. Some people like this - some do not.

If you are flexible and you make your reservation the instant the reservation window opens at 12 mos., I don't think you will have a problem with summer reservations - because there are lots of summer weeks, and you can book Fri., Sat., or Sun. check-in. (In June and July alone, that's 27 possible check-in dates.)

But winter holidays, like President's week get booked in minutes.

You can't reserve Christmas or New Year's week at all, because they were sold as Event Weeks, and only the owners of those weeks can book them.

Thanks for the detail. For the mf premium for OFD is the view better in an OFD unit compared to OFC? Thanks for all the help.

 

[DeniseM]

Both OF villa types are on the ocean end of Bldgs. 2 and 3, so the view is the same, except for the OFD studio lanai, which is on the side of the Bldg. and faces the beach.

The OFC units are in the center of the ocean ends of Bldg. 2 and 3, and the OFD Deluxe units are on the corners of Bldg. 2 and 3.

The OFD 1 bdm. and living room face the ocean - exact same view as the OFC units, and the OFD studio is on the side of the Bldg. and faces the beach.

 

[DeniseM]

[My misunderstanding - redacted.]

 

[okwiater]

TravelTime: Please check your calculations for WKORV OFD - the OFD maintenance fee is significantly higher than the other 2, but you have it as the lowest MF:



South OF Center - $2,384
North OF - $2,641
South OF Deluxe - $3,271

Denise — he was quoting SOs per dollar. It makes sense for the unit with highest MF to return the fewest SOs per dollar.

 

[DeniseM]

Thanks okwaiter - I misunderstood how it was calculated.

 

[bizaro86]

I think this is a legit point of view, although expressed somewhat out of the Tug convention.

SVV has wide acceptance as a staroption generator. The north OF units on Maui generate staroptions at a similar MF cost, so they are reasonable from that point of view.

They are much more expensive upfront, but there are a number of optionality benefits from that extra outlay.

1) you can book OF views on Maui at 12 months year round. I bet a lot of folks buying SVV want Maui. This guarantees it.

2) less exposed to potential changes in the staroption program. If marriott screws up VSN somehow, SVV will have negative value and be hard to sell. WKORVN OF probably would be worth about the same.

3) better rental options. If you can't go, you are only allowed to rent your home resort. With SVV, imo recovering MF would be an absolute best case scenario. The N OF unit would rent well.

The outlay is bigger, but if one is considering SVV and can afford it, there's a reasonable case to be made for WKORVN OF.

I think some of the WSJ units are similar.

edited to add:

4) If Marriott offers destination points enrollment for VSN owners somehow, I bet the points per dollar ratio would be even better for the maui units, especially the ocean front ones. IIRC the premium is much bigger in the Marriott system.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@TravelTime and @bizaro86 have an interesting point.

For some who can afford resale and MF, it is worth sleeping at night to get what they want and reduce Marriott program change risk. (resale is still a bargain)
For others, they will sleep well at night knowing that they are not locking up capital and don't have a big MF to pay at SVV. Any view in Hawaii is good - especially at that price.

 

[okwiater]

This underscores the adage, buy where you want to go. As the argument makes clear, if your needs are somewhat of a mix between reserving prime Maui weeks and generating SOs, these can be a worthy option.