• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

The Timeshare industry is broken - action is required

Swegnson

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
9
Reaction score
8
Points
63
Resorts Owned
Smuggler's Notch Resort
The Timeshare industry, IMHO, is broken. On the one hand Wyndham and others sell new timeshares for many thousands of dollars. On the other hand resales often go for nothing or a single $. As bad, if not worse, there is a whole sub-industry built around "helping get people out of their timeshares" which often scams the unwary. We timeshare owners need a campaign to combat the aggressive sales tactics of those selling new and to make ALL prospective buyers aware of their opportunities in the resale market. Only once the balance is restored will the market be healthy. TUG does a great job of educating folk who find their way to it, but we should be doing more.
 

littlestar

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
367
Points
468
Location
Midwest
Resorts Owned
Disney Vacation Club, Marriott & Wyndham pts
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. I have had people think I am crazy for suggesting resale. They thought it was too good to be legit or inferior.
 

AwayWeGo

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
15,686
Reaction score
1,630
Points
699
Location
McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.
Resorts Owned
Grandview At Las Vegas

[triennial - points]
The gap between timeshare company prices & actual open-market timeshare values is so wide that surely there should be an above-board way for some company to make money in timeshares without the high-pressure razzle-dazzle & ballyhoo -- maybe something along the lines of Walmart for newly deeded timeshares & CarMax for resales.

I am not holding my breath.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

Swegnson

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
9
Reaction score
8
Points
63
Resorts Owned
Smuggler's Notch Resort
Perhaps all it takes is an enterprising young person. Look at AirBnB, Uber, Lyft and the like. They have created marketplaces where they own no assets.
 

Roger830

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2013
Messages
1,456
Reaction score
587
Points
323
Location
CT
Generally, retail timeshares are sold not bought. The industry never would have been able to exist based on resale prices.

That said, there are many retail purchasers happy with their timeshare.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,612
Reaction score
5,778
Points
1,249
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
Back in the days before the internet exploded with information about everything under the sun being made available to practically everybody in the free world, I used to think that the timeshare resale market would never be fully developed like, for example, used cars or residential real estate. Since the internet exploded I think there's opportunity for such a market but I also think that people have to take responsibility for their own actions. When it takes nanoseconds to do a web search for timeshare information, and TUG comes up prominently in the majority of such searches, the blame for poor decisions has to at least be shared equally by those who sell and those who buy. I just don't see how/why developers who aren't breaking any laws should be faulted for trying to get the absolute most profit out of their business. That's what businesses are supposed to do!
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
22,091
Reaction score
7,673
Points
1,099
Location
Florida
also working against this is the fact that there are plenty of owners who even after being shown the facts about resale/retail....simply dont believe the staggering price difference is for the same product etc.

I like to use the example that everyone can relate to....since most people know at least one person/family etc who refuses to buy anything but a brand new car despite knowing full well of the availability of used cars etc.

for some the moniker "used" will always denote a lesser quality or somehow worth less than new...even if it has absolutely no reference whatsoever to timeshares. Add on top of that the fact that so many timeshares are literally given away for nothing (or next to nothing)...it just reinforces the idea in their head that resale/used isnt the same thing!

after all, everyone would be skeptical of a $1 price tag on a perfectly good looking car!
 

Swegnson

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
9
Reaction score
8
Points
63
Resorts Owned
Smuggler's Notch Resort
There is selling and there is selling. When my wife and I purchased our timeshare at Smuggler's Notch in Vermont the sales presentation was very low key, low pressure. At the time the in-house resort real estate staff also handled resales albeit with a health commission (20%). This gave the purchaser the feeling that the resort was interested in looking out for their buyers over the long haul. The gap between prices for new and for resales was understandable. This model worked over a couple decades until the great recession of 2008. Unfortunately the resort owner then turned to Wyndham to "take over" the unsold inventory. Wyndham, of course does not handle resales. The resort is now offering a program that if you are current on your maintenance they will take the unit back for no compensation and you can stop paying maintenance. In my mind that is essentially theft when Wyndham will turn around and sell "new timeshares" to new people for many thousands of dollars, who are likely to be placed in those same units.

We have been very happy with our timeshare experience and have no intention of "selling" any time soon. But what is wrong is wrong.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,612
Reaction score
5,778
Points
1,249
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
Also, regulation of the external resale market isn't going to happen without acknowledgement from those who are playing in the timeshare sandbox that the reputation of timeshare businesses being sleazy is perpetuated by those in the sandbox!

How many who own timeshares take advantage of lax rules to further their own gains? For example, it's completely transparent which exchange companies expressly prohibit private rentals of exchange intervals. Yet there are some who rent exchange company inventory as a cottage industry, some who have no problem renting such intervals for their own use and many who turn a blind eye to it when it's happening right under their noses. How many TUG discussions about these prohibited rentals come to a crashing halt when somebody posts the rules?

How many who own timeshares take advantage of known fraud practices in order to buy timeshares at rock-bottom prices, but then turn around and bemoan the fact that the market is unregulated? For example, it's well-known on TUG that you can get around a developer's Right Of First Refusal by submitting completely fraudulent purchase documents that inflate the price in order to circumvent known ROFR thresholds. How many ignore it when buying and how many practice it when selling? And again, how many TUG threads come to a screeching halt when somebody posts about it?

How many buy cheap timeshares from known scam/postcard companies, effectively keeping these outfits in business, despite knowing that they exist off the backs of timeshare owners who are victims of the companies' sleazy practices?

It's important to recognize that these and other questionable actions on the part of owners, in sufficient numbers, are as damaging to the industry as any full-out scam outfits. They may be more blatant about it and they stand to lose a whole lot more in total than we owners might individually, but again the fault for timeshares having a sleazy reputation doesn't completely rest on everyone except the owners.
 
Last edited:

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
22,091
Reaction score
7,673
Points
1,099
Location
Florida
and the most ironic part is the millions of owners who donate money every year to ARDA...which represents and lobbys for these developers and their schemes.

every yearly donation from these millions of owners is quite literally...a vote in support of the current industry model and tactics.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,612
Reaction score
5,778
Points
1,249
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
and the most ironic part is the millions of owners who donate money every year to ARDA...which represents and lobbys for these developers and their schemes.

every yearly donation from these millions of owners is quite literally...a vote in support of the current industry model and tactics.

I agree with you about donations to ARDA; that's the companies' arm of the lobbying firm and there's no need for owners to contribute to it.

But I somewhat disagree when it comes to ARDA-ROC which is the timeshare owners' arm. Despite their interests usually aligning with that of the companies, their work also benefits the owners and they are not as sufficiently-funded as ARDA. Just this week there are TUG reports of another example of how ARDA-ROC is working in opposition to newly-legislated owner/occupier fees at timeshare properties, this time in the US Virgin Islands.

I am not saying that everyone who owns a timeshare should be supporting ARDA-ROC, and I don't disagree that ARDA-ROC will rarely if ever work for us in opposition to something that ARDA supports. What I am saying is that it's important to acknowledge that ARDA-ROC exists and is working on behalf of timeshare owners, so maybe their benefit to us shouldn't be summarily dismissed as easily as ARDA is.

Full discretion, I don't have any connection to ARDA and don't support the inclusion of ARDA-ROC fees with our Maintenance Fee bills. But I did make a stand-alone contribution to ARDA-ROC the one year that they opposed initial discussion about similar fees at Hilton Head which is where I own timeshares. (Nothing ever came of that discussion and hopefully never will.)

Marriott is one timeshare company which this year started introducing owners to their ARDA-ROC liaison via a write-up that was included with MF's packages. I encourage everyone to review at least that minimum ARDA-ROC information when it's presented. Full information is available at ARDA.com.
 

Swegnson

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
9
Reaction score
8
Points
63
Resorts Owned
Smuggler's Notch Resort
So please forgive my ignorance. I am aware of ARDA, but was not aware that timeshare owners were being asked, or required, to donate to them. I never have, at least not knowingly. So how are owners conned into doing this?
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
22,091
Reaction score
7,673
Points
1,099
Location
Florida
So please forgive my ignorance. I am aware of ARDA, but was not aware that timeshare owners were being asked, or required, to donate to them. I never have, at least not knowingly. So how are owners conned into doing this?

the donation is included as part of most owners annual maintenance fees, and the "donation" is included by default in most cases.
 

vacationtime1

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
5,159
Reaction score
2,750
Points
649
Location
San Francisco
Resorts Owned
WKORV-OF (Maui)
WKV x2 (Scottsdale)
So please forgive my ignorance. I am aware of ARDA, but was not aware that timeshare owners were being asked, or required, to donate to them. I never have, at least not knowingly. So how are owners conned into doing this?

Marriott and Vistana each add $5 or $10 (per unit) to our MF bills as an additional line item. It requires an affirmative step to not pay that incremental amount.

I suspect that most owners just pay it.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,612
Reaction score
5,778
Points
1,249
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
So please forgive my ignorance. I am aware of ARDA, but was not aware that timeshare owners were being asked, or required, to donate to them. I never have, at least not knowingly. So how are owners conned into doing this?

Many of the companies, including the giants like Marriott and Vistana (Sheraton,) include a line-item ARDA-ROC donation in the annual Maintenance Fee invoices. On Marriott billings it requires the owner to check off the suggested donation box and add it to the MF total; on Vistana bills it's automatically included and owners are required to subtract it from the total. Various other companies present it in various different ways.

I suspect Robert is correct that most owners don't pay enough attention to their bills and just pay it. Grrrrr.
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
22,091
Reaction score
7,673
Points
1,099
Location
Florida
Per the ARDA-ROC argument, im still waiting to see any example of anything they have worked for in a situation that benefits owners over developers.

you cannot honestly have a "subsidiary" of a huge lobbying body that has "owners" in its name to claim they work for owners, when the larger body does its best to undermine them.

yes the recent 30/day tax passed in the virgin islands is something ARDA-ROC opposes...and will produce a number of press releases and headlines voicing their opposition....all the while millions of dollars are fleeced from owners on a daily basis by upfront fee resale companies and scammers....many of which are...or have been in the past...ARDA members.
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
22,091
Reaction score
7,673
Points
1,099
Location
Florida
absolutely most owners "just pay it"....id even go so far as to say there is a huge % of owners who dont even know they are paying it in the first place and simply assume its just another cost of ownership vs an "optional" donation.

id bet the vast majority of owners would NOT check the box deliberately to pay it if it were not already done so for them.
 

vacationtime1

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
5,159
Reaction score
2,750
Points
649
Location
San Francisco
Resorts Owned
WKORV-OF (Maui)
WKV x2 (Scottsdale)
Per the ARDA-ROC argument, im still waiting to see any example of anything they have worked for in a situation that benefits owners over developers.

you cannot honestly have a "subsidiary" of a huge lobbying body that has "owners" in its name to claim they work for owners, when the larger body does its best to undermine them.

yes the recent 30/day tax passed in the virgin islands is something ARDA-ROC opposes...and will produce a number of press releases and headlines voicing their opposition....all the while millions of dollars are fleeced from owners on a daily basis by upfront fee resale companies and scammers....many of which are...or have been in the past...ARDA members.

ARDA-ROC can oppose the new Virgin Islands tax because it also adversely affects the developers' interests; it is therefore completely consistent with ARDA's interests.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,612
Reaction score
5,778
Points
1,249
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
Per the ARDA-ROC argument, im still waiting to see any example of anything they have worked for in a situation that benefits owners over developers.

you cannot honestly have a "subsidiary" of a huge lobbying body that has "owners" in its name to claim they work for owners, when the larger body does its best to undermine them.

yes the recent 30/day tax passed in the virgin islands is something ARDA-ROC opposes...and will produce a number of press releases and headlines voicing their opposition....all the while millions of dollars are fleeced from owners on a daily basis by upfront fee resale companies and scammers....many of which are...or have been in the past...ARDA members.

ARDA-ROC can oppose the new Virgin Islands tax because it also adversely affects the developers' interests; it is therefore completely consistent with ARDA's interests.

I don't disagree, have already said that ARDA-ROC is highly unlikely to take a stance in opposition to ARDA-supported measures. My point is simply that ARDA-ROC has a separate mission and separate funding than ARDA, and I'm willing to support that mission if they are actively working on one-off measures that will benefit me. It's a choice we all have and I don't criticize anyone who wouldn't make the same choice as me. :)
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,612
Reaction score
5,778
Points
1,249
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
absolutely most owners "just pay it"....id even go so far as to say there is a huge % of owners who dont even know they are paying it in the first place and simply assume its just another cost of ownership vs an "optional" donation.

id bet the vast majority of owners would NOT check the box deliberately to pay it if it were not already done so for them.

I've always wondered how the contributions compare between Marriott owners who do have to check the box and owners in other systems who have to deduct it.
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
22,091
Reaction score
7,673
Points
1,099
Location
Florida

ecwinch

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
3,731
Reaction score
1,119
Points
748
Location
San Antonio
Resorts Owned
Marriott Harbour Point (HP), Kauai Beach Villas, Riverside Suites, WorldMark Pts (WM), Wyndham Pts
A better example of ARDA lobbying is their efforts in CA to remove an owner's ability to obtain a mailing list of fellow owners.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,612
Reaction score
5,778
Points
1,249
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
A better example of ARDA lobbying is their efforts in CA to remove an owner's ability to obtain a mailing list of fellow owners.

I actually support that effort. Despite knowing that there can be reasons for owners to easily band together in support of a common cause, I don't want any and every other owner to have access to my personal contact information. If their concerns are legitimate they can use the services that are provided, i.e. conform to the rules and pay the necessary costs for Marriott to distribute their info. If what they have to say doesn't conform to the rules because it's anti-Marriott, let them take their concerns to a qualified attorney who can confidently advise whether they have a case and if so, set up a class action that will open legal access with my consent. That way they're not wasting time and money, theirs or mine, without a halfway-decent chance of it being money well spent on attainable success.

(Whoa, that sounds harsh. Maybe it is. But I've seen the results of owners trying to band together in efforts that were practically guaranteed to fail right from the start. I don't want any part of being dragged into one of those situations.)
 
Last edited:

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
47,355
Reaction score
18,923
Points
1,299
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
Generally, retail timeshares are sold not bought. The industry never would have been able to exist based on resale prices.

That said, there are many retail purchasers happy with their timeshare.
Even the CEO of Marriott Vacations Worldwide admits that timeshares are a sold product, not bought. No one (well almost no one) goes in to a sales presentation with the plan to buy a timeshare. They are a product that is sold based on impulse with either high pressure or messages of "today only".

Unfortunately, there is no MLS type of system for timeshares like there is in residential real estate. The timeshare market is a lot smaller than residential real estate and the amount of each transaction is much smaller. There just isn't as much money to be made, so no one has invested what is needed to create an organized resale market. The only money to be made seems to be from scammers ripping people off by telling them they have a buyer for their worthless timeshare.

The big guys in the industry along with ARDA all have a responsibility in this too. They need to do a better job of educating their owners. The problem is that they can't educate prospective buyers because they probably wouldn't buy in the first place. This isn't a big enough problem for major regulators to step in. Mainly because those that have the power are rich enough that they probably don't bother with timeshare and they are always pedaling to those that can't afford one.
 

VacationForever

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
16,196
Reaction score
10,607
Points
1,048
Location
Somewhere Out There
At least Wyndham is offering deed back when the timeshare is free and clear. If all large timeshare resort systems do this, this will save a large number of timeshare owners from the stress of disposing their timeshare when they no longer want them. They gained my respect for taking this lead in the industry.
 
Top