• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

True Value of an Exchange

PerryM

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
4,282
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Don't stop the insanity, please!

I exploit II's (which is the same as RCI's) insane dynamic supply and demand in their Week system. I hope they never change.

Last Christmas I got 3, count them 3, exchanges for WM credits into 2 Marriott Summit Watches and 1 Marriott Mountainside – this was for Christmas week, week 51, last year. I got them 6 months out and all 3 hit within 3 days. Marriott sells Platinum Plus week 51 for about $60,000+ each and my WM credits cost me about $7,500 week.

This year I exchanged a Gold Marriott Summit Watch (cost me $5,500) for a Platinum Maui (costs about $46,000) for the week after the 4th of July. (Again, about 6 months out)

This is the result of the insanity of instantaneously calculating Supply and Demand. My exchanges were sitting there for 6 months, just waiting for Marriott owners who had hot holiday weeks (July in Maui is as hot as week 51) and let the stupidity of the instant Supply crash the trading power down to nothing.

Thanks II (and RCI, you too) for the insanity – please don’t listen to others and change your system.
 
Last edited:

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Making the results but not the formula public as in Points give an incentive and an opportunity to cheat. Conflicts of interest like an exchange company renting exchange deposits to the general public, do, too. These are the real problems.

The part about the proverbial red week that will trade for anything you mention that creates the problem is the public part - the designation as a red week, not the unpublished part, the trading power. What is public is subject to being manipulated by the developers as many designations as ''red'' and points numbers in the numbers racket called RCI Points both clearly show.




Roger said:
I realize that at this point there are probably only three people left reading this thread (that might be a generous estimate), but just in case ...

The following thread exemplifies two of the deep rooted problems with the way in which trading power is currently administered within the Weeks system
The wonders of the Weeks trading power system

  1. One person deposited her week, found out that it had low trading power, asked for it back (and, in this case, was able to get it) and then redeposited the unit. The second time around, it had much improved trading power.

    How could that happen (apart from some dirty dealings)? Easy. If the first time the person deposited her week coincided with when a number of other owners of the same resort or a number of other South Africa owners deposited their weeks, by the dynamic formula of supply and demand, the trading power would be reduced (high supply). And once the trading power of a deposit is set, it stays fixed.

    But why would a whole bunch of people deposit their weeks about the same time? There are a number of possibilities: Maintenence fees due. Time of year. (People are beginning to think of their next year's vacation.) Etc.
  2. Several people think that RCI has mistakenly assigned the incorrect trading power to their unit. Given that the interface between RCI North America and RCI South Africa is shakey at best, that could well be. Unfortumately, since the trading power is kept secret, the owners have no way of documenting what they suspect to be true.
There is a third negative consequence of the Weeks secret trading power system reflected within that thread. Aldo presumes that there must be dirty dealing. When things happen in secret (and, when going to places like TUG you read messages about "loose lips sink ships" -- that is, here are some ways to manipulate the system that we need to keep secret), suspicions of dirty dealings are inevitable.

All of this, so that developers can tell someone that there red, three bedroom (in November) has great trading power.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
The market is the market. If the market has an oversupply of something you think is worth more, go for it. But supply and demand are real forces, not ''insane.'' Calcified points numbers is just another inane theory akin to rent control, wage and price controls, currency pegs, etc.


PerryM said:
I exploit II's (which is the same as RCI's) insane dynamic supply and demand in their Week system. I hope they never change.

Last Christmas I got 3, count them 3, exchanges for WM credits into 2 Marriott Summit Watches and 1 Marriott Mountainside – this was for Christmas week, week 51, last year. I got them 6 months out and all 3 hit within 3 days. Marriott sells Platinum Plus week 51 for about $60,000+ each and my WM credits cost me about $7,500 week.

This year I exchanged a Gold Marriott Summit Watch (cost me $5,500) for a Platinum Maui (costs about $46,000) for the week after the 4th of July. (Again, about 6 months out)

This is the result of the insanity of instantaneously calculating Supply and Demand. My exchanges were sitting there for 6 months, just waiting for Marriott owners who had hot holiday weeks (July in Maui is as hot as week 51) and let the stupidity of the instant Supply crash the trading power down to nothing.

Thanks II (and RCI, you too) for the insanity – please don’t listen to others and change your system.
 

PerryM

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
4,282
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Hope this works with BMWs too

I wish my local BMW dealer used II’s and RCI’s definition of “Supply”; that way I could call them each morning and find out how many 325’s they had in stock. If they had 1 then I’d have to pay sticker price. If they had 2 then they must reduce the price to unload it. The last time I was up there, they had 12 325’s in stock so my 1995 Camry wagon would be worth more (Only have 1 of them) then the 12th BMW 325!

The dealer would, of course, use words like “Insane idea”, but I’d have him call RCI and II since this is how they handle Supply and Demand.

This is the exact logic I used to ski Marriott’s most expensive resorts at Christmas time and swim the warm Maui beaches at the 4th of July; and I put up weeks worth 1/5 the price!

This is a fundamental flaw in RCI and II which allows for totally lopsided exchanges which I just love. Unfortunately, those owners who use common sense would never think of putting up a cheap week for a hot holiday week. That’s where they made a huge mistake – to assume RCI and II know what the heck they are doing.
 

timeos2

Tug Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
11,183
Reaction score
5
Points
36
Location
Rochester, NY
Secret is not a consumer friendly model

Carolinian said:
The market is the market. If the market has an oversupply of something you think is worth more, go for it. But supply and demand are real forces, not ''insane.'' Calcified points numbers is just another inane theory akin to rent control, wage and price controls, currency pegs, etc.

There is no "market" when the exchange does all the work in hiding. Where in the II/RCI system does the customer get a say? Where do they see the value of what they gave up or the value of what they want? When do they get to say "yes, thats a fair exchange"? How anyone can defend keeping the customers in the dark as a better system is completely beyond my comprehension. It has nothing to do with fixing values (they can always be changed if they are wrong) but simply hiding alomost everything from the consumers (except of course the red/white system that plays into the deception sellers want to foster) "for their own good". Sorry. That just doesn't make sense. Open systems will naturally regulate themselves. Secret systems favor the select few. You can't get any more secret than weeks.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Automobiles do work on the same principle, but with the totality of the market not just a small geographical subset of it.

Instead of BMW's, think Morgan's. For years the factory in Malvern Hills, England has had a backlog of orders, usually for at least a year. Order a new Morgan Plus 8, and when it is delivered, you can sell it for a good bit more than list price. That is because the backlog means a buyer cannot get a new Plus 8 off of the lot. They have to order and wait. That limitation of supply means a higher price if you choose to sell your new Morgan instead of driving it. If you are not familiar with Morgan sportscars, the company which is still owned by the Morgan family has been making cars since before World War I, and has not substantially changed the bodystyle since 1939. There are only two Morgan dealerships in the US.

The same thing has happened with limited production Jaguars. Even some hot new cars from more mundane makes have seen the same thing when demand for a new model is so great that early production cannot keep up.
Dealers can charge and get higher than list price.


PerryM said:
I wish my local BMW dealer used II’s and RCI’s definition of “Supply”; that way I could call them each morning and find out how many 325’s they had in stock. If they had 1 then I’d have to pay sticker price. If they had 2 then they must reduce the price to unload it. The last time I was up there, they had 12 325’s in stock so my 1995 Camry wagon would be worth more (Only have 1 of them) then the 12th BMW 325!

The dealer would, of course, use words like “Insane idea”, but I’d have him call RCI and II since this is how they handle Supply and Demand.

This is the exact logic I used to ski Marriott’s most expensive resorts at Christmas time and swim the warm Maui beaches at the 4th of July; and I put up weeks worth 1/5 the price!

This is a fundamental flaw in RCI and II which allows for totally lopsided exchanges which I just love. Unfortunately, those owners who use common sense would never think of putting up a cheap week for a hot holiday week. That’s where they made a huge mistake – to assume RCI and II know what the heck they are doing.
 

taffy19

newbie
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
5,723
Reaction score
593
Points
398
timeos2 said:
There is no "market" when the exchange does all the work in hiding. Where in the II/RCI system does the customer get a say? Where do they see the value of what they gave up or the value of what they want? When do they get to say "yes, thats a fair exchange"? How anyone can defend keeping the customers in the dark as a better system is completely beyond my comprehension. It has nothing to do with fixing values (they can always be changed if they are wrong) but simply hiding alomost everything from the consumers (except of course the red/white system that plays into the deception sellers want to foster) "for their own good". Sorry. That just doesn't make sense. Open systems will naturally regulate themselves. Secret systems favor the select few. You can't get any more secret than weeks.
Exactly and this is why I would not deposit a week to RCI or II but II has request first but then you won't get an extra week. Letting people know what they can exchange their week for is a much fairer system. I don't care if it is point or week based system. Another problem is that the week has to be available or you get nothing!

Yes, I am still reading this thread too. ;)
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
A frozen system is no market. Calcified points numbers cannot react to constant changes in supply and demand.

You keep saying that RCI Points numbers can be changed, but I have challenged you to point our where they ever have as to Points resorts (not the crossover grids which were tweaked a bit, but are still a massive fraud on Weeks resorts for prime time). So far, that has met with a deafening silence.
The fact is that they really don't change. These calcified numbers are more like the old command economies of the old eastern bloc, where the central authority told everyone what things were worth instead of the give and take of the market.

The only way one could make points dynamic is to publish them solely in an electronic format where they could adjust regularly. But then again those with overpointed resorts, such as in overbuilt areas, would lose out on the free ride that RCI Points gives them if that were done.


timeos2 said:
There is no "market" when the exchange does all the work in hiding. Where in the II/RCI system does the customer get a say? Where do they see the value of what they gave up or the value of what they want? When do they get to say "yes, thats a fair exchange"? How anyone can defend keeping the customers in the dark as a better system is completely beyond my comprehension. It has nothing to do with fixing values (they can always be changed if they are wrong) but simply hiding alomost everything from the consumers (except of course the red/white system that plays into the deception sellers want to foster) "for their own good". Sorry. That just doesn't make sense. Open systems will naturally regulate themselves. Secret systems favor the select few. You can't get any more secret than weeks.
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,973
Reaction score
3,627
Points
648
I too would think points is a more open system than weeks (II or RCI) but there are still options that are arbitrary and beyond market control. While I realize that a more honest system would create the haves and have not's, I think it would be far better in the long run. I also suspect we'd lose about 10% of the resorts currently open over time but the ones remaining would be in a better position for the long haul. It likely would mean that any resort who had to rely on forcing off season exchanges and attempting to block rentals would be in the group that would be likely to fail. I could also see more seasonal resorts closing for off season.
 

taffy19

newbie
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
5,723
Reaction score
593
Points
398
Carolinian said:
The only way one could make points dynamic is to publish them solely in an electronic format where they could adjust regularly. But then again those with overpointed resorts, such as in overbuilt areas, would lose out on the free ride that RCI Points gives them if that were done.
Why can't they do it electronically? They can make the exchanges dynamic as well as the resorts judging on the feed-back they get from their members. They can if they want to but they may not want to. :rolleyes:
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,973
Reaction score
3,627
Points
648
Carolinian said:
A frozen system is no market. Calcified points numbers cannot react to constant changes in supply and demand.

You keep saying that RCI Points numbers can be changed, but I have challenged you to point our where they ever have as to Points resorts (not the crossover grids which were tweaked a bit, but are still a massive fraud on Weeks resorts for prime time). So far, that has met with a deafening silence.
The fact is that they really don't change. These calcified numbers are more like the old command economies of the old eastern bloc, where the central authority told everyone what things were worth instead of the give and take of the market.

The only way one could make points dynamic is to publish them solely in an electronic format where they could adjust regularly. But then again those with overpointed resorts, such as in overbuilt areas, would lose out on the free ride that RCI Points gives them if that were done.
There's no question that any printed system will have a certain amount of carry over and be somewhat reluctant to change on a whim. But they don't need to. What they need to do is migrate to a value for each unit (day, week, whatever) that represents to overall value of that unit and to adjust for known variations like holiday timing. If that value changes over time, the system can change. There's no reason for it to go up and down on a day by day basis. Week may or may not do so but they likely shouldn't as well. If there are wholesale changes over time, the system needs to change. But just because 3 units came in at the same time for the same resort does not mean those exchangers should be penalized nor should the one lucky enough to deposit when there were few deposits get a windfall. The system should know the historical info and act accordingly and should only have to REACT if something truly out of the ordinary comes along. Say there are traditionally 100 units deposited for X resort for Y week and this year there are 500. The system would need to change to account for what is likely either a long term change or an underlying problem or both. OTOH, if those usual 100 units are usually deposited a few at a time but this year they are more grouped together, no reason to adjust at all.
 

timeos2

Tug Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
11,183
Reaction score
5
Points
36
Location
Rochester, NY
We're talking market right now

Carolinian said:
A frozen system is no market. Calcified points numbers cannot react to constant changes in supply and demand.

You keep saying that RCI Points numbers can be changed, but I have challenged you to point our where they ever have as to Points resorts (not the crossover grids which were tweaked a bit, but are still a massive fraud on Weeks resorts for prime time). So far, that has met with a deafening silence.
The fact is that they really don't change. These calcified numbers are more like the old command economies of the old eastern bloc, where the central authority told everyone what things were worth instead of the give and take of the market.

There have been changes in the points values, I gave you some a month or two back. But forget that for now. The question is where is the market in weeks? Not just RCI but II as well? I don't care if points systems exist or not - week systems that use hidden values are not viable. They have created the dissatisfaction and disillusioned owners wondering why that great 1st week in November they were sold won't trade for July 4th at the Manhattan Club. If the system wasn't rigged to help developers sell virtually worthless time by hiding everything except the ability to freely deposit your week (nothing about what it might be worth or what you want is worth) then it would be open. They would want the great value of a July 4th week to be known (and sell for many $$$ more) than that dirt week in November. The fact that they hide the value of not only the bad weeks but the good ones as well in order to make the sale of the other 45 weeks a year even slightly viable tells you all you need to know about who benefits from a secret system of values. That is the "rent control" not a published system that lets the user decide what has value and what doesn't. To call the secret system a market stretches the meaning of "market" even beyond the twisting of a fixed week into "flexible". Torturing the definitions beyond recognition doesn't make the fixed time less fixed or a hidden system open.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
What you seem to miss is that any system that is not open about the mechanism to set values (revealing the formula and underlying data) but only publishes the results is NOT an open system. It only offers the illusion of openness.

The resorts that are propped up by the system are those with an excess of supply, for whatever reason. One of the biggest groups of excess of supply are resorts in overbuilt areas. These are propped up in Points by overpointing.
Reveal the mechanism to establish values and these resorts can't be propped up anymore. Of course that is one reason why someone connected with such a resort would not want the mechanism revealed.


Dean said:
I too would think points is a more open system than weeks (II or RCI) but there are still options that are arbitrary and beyond market control. While I realize that a more honest system would create the haves and have not's, I think it would be far better in the long run. I also suspect we'd lose about 10% of the resorts currently open over time but the ones remaining would be in a better position for the long haul. It likely would mean that any resort who had to rely on forcing off season exchanges and attempting to block rentals would be in the group that would be likely to fail. I could also see more seasonal resorts closing for off season.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Supply and demand are real market forces, not a ''whim''.

Calcified numbers primarily help one entity - an exchange company trying to find excess to rent to the general public. Guess why they came up with it? Certainly not to provide any favor to members! Numbers that are frozen and cannot respond to market changes are always going to generate ''excesses''.
It all about their rental operation.


Dean said:
There's no question that any printed system will have a certain amount of carry over and be somewhat reluctant to change on a whim. But they don't need to. What they need to do is migrate to a value for each unit (day, week, whatever) that represents to overall value of that unit and to adjust for known variations like holiday timing. If that value changes over time, the system can change. There's no reason for it to go up and down on a day by day basis. Week may or may not do so but they likely shouldn't as well. If there are wholesale changes over time, the system needs to change. But just because 3 units came in at the same time for the same resort does not mean those exchangers should be penalized nor should the one lucky enough to deposit when there were few deposits get a windfall. The system should know the historical info and act accordingly and should only have to REACT if something truly out of the ordinary comes along. Say there are traditionally 100 units deposited for X resort for Y week and this year there are 500. The system would need to change to account for what is likely either a long term change or an underlying problem or both. OTOH, if those usual 100 units are usually deposited a few at a time but this year they are more grouped together, no reason to adjust at all.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Published values do not help members when they are frozen, rigged to favor some types and against others, and lump too many dissimilar weeks together.

A points system would be more viable if it were
1) published in a dynamic format that facilitated frequent changes based on changes in the market.
2) based on an openly revealed mechanism for setting values, coupled with freely availible supporting data
3) valued each week independently where they were not bunched together in overbroad groupings.
4) based on real supply and demand, not favoritism

Unfortunately, RCI Points does NOT do these things. It is a rather poor illusion of an open system.


timeos2 said:
There have been changes in the points values, I gave you some a month or two back. But forget that for now. The question is where is the market in weeks? Not just RCI but II as well? I don't care if points systems exist or not - week systems that use hidden values are not viable. They have created the dissatisfaction and disillusioned owners wondering why that great 1st week in November they were sold won't trade for July 4th at the Manhattan Club. If the system wasn't rigged to help developers sell virtually worthless time by hiding everything except the ability to freely deposit your week (nothing about what it might be worth or what you want is worth) then it would be open. They would want the great value of a July 4th week to be known (and sell for many $$$ more) than that dirt week in November. The fact that they hide the value of not only the bad weeks but the good ones as well in order to make the sale of the other 45 weeks a year even slightly viable tells you all you need to know about who benefits from a secret system of values. That is the "rent control" not a published system that lets the user decide what has value and what doesn't. To call the secret system a market stretches the meaning of "market" even beyond the twisting of a fixed week into "flexible". Torturing the definitions beyond recognition doesn't make the fixed time less fixed or a hidden system open.
 

PerryM

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
4,282
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Alice in Wonderland logic

Carolinian,

The problem that a car dealer faces is that he must make a profit – they can’t use Alice in Wonderland definitions of Supply and Demand.

RCI and II, on the other hand, ONLY make money when an exchange happens – so Alice in Wonderland logic is used to insure exchanges happen frequently and whether the exchange makes any common sense is not relevant. (Need to make some money for the share holders) This is possible since RCI and II need secrecy to keep all their dirty little secrets from the light of truth.

I certainly don’t intend to fight Weeks, just exploit it. I think that II and RCI have the closest thing to a perpetual motion machine for educated owners that one can imagine.
 

Warren Scaman

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
Points
211
Location
Libertyville, IL
Crystal Ball!

So we have market forces at work here! Every Exchange company has their Crystal Ball.The more we understand how the black box works the better we can take advantage of the inefficiencies:clap:

1. The Market cannot be predicted with great accuracy much into the future , like the weather. Fact that the economy changes for the better and worse over time. Every Day several factors Change, by Country, Industry, Company and even People. For the better or the worse. Like the stock market, no real predictor or pattern by quarter.

2. We either have more money, the same money or less or no money to travel so situations do change over time 3,6, 9 , 12 ,12+ months out, yes for the better and worse.

Seams like the better we can have something good to trade we are better of 12 months out than 3 months out. However we can take advantage of fire sale properties say @59 or 29 days , if we have the time and some $.

Thank You Tuggers,

Truth and Wisdom is all we want to know!
 
S

Steamboat Bill

I spoke with someone who claimed to be a former II and Marriott trainer, althought I did not see any documentation.

He said they get a base salary and then a small commission for each trade they do. Thus, a rep is interested in any trade, no matter if it is reasonable or not.
 

timeos2

Tug Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
11,183
Reaction score
5
Points
36
Location
Rochester, NY
The system gave value to the worthless and it's ending

Dean said:
I too would think points is a more open system than weeks (II or RCI) but there are still options that are arbitrary and beyond market control. While I realize that a more honest system would create the haves and have not's, I think it would be far better in the long run. I also suspect we'd lose about 10% of the resorts currently open over time but the ones remaining would be in a better position for the long haul. It likely would mean that any resort who had to rely on forcing off season exchanges and attempting to block rentals would be in the group that would be likely to fail. I could also see more seasonal resorts closing for off season.

You are getting very close to the reality that 2/3 of the weeks at seasonal resorts are very low value. Not to say they can't be made viable - they can - but it takes affirmative action by the resorts to create a demand (value) from use time that has very little naturally. The weeks advocates want RCI/II to artificially create that value, at no cost to the owners, by freely giving up more valuable trades to those poor value periods. Thus the "fairness" of the hidden valuations of II/RCI in the secretive weeks exchange systems. But each resort needs to stand on its own. If there isn't enough demand in a free, not manipulated or hidden "market", then those times go unused (at a cost to the owners of the better times who currently get subsidized by the secret valuations), need to have their value raised (build all season attractions or tie use to local festivals or other reasons for guests/owners to want to visit in otherwise slow times), close the resort in slow periods or let the resort fail.

The reason weeks advocates are so defensive isn't to protect a perfect system but to perpetuate a system that gives value to otherwise worthless time at others expense. If the system were as good as they want us to believe then resale values for white and blue time would be skyrocketing as a great deal. We know the reverse is true and it is obvious hidden valuations help support that deception. You don't even have to look at the hot button of weeks VS points - just study the operation of the two major weeks only systems and the problems are painfully clear. The alternative systems have risen to address the problems - they did not create them. All the bluster about frozen values and other smokesceens are merely attempts to continue the old ways vs a true, open market where owners - not the backrooms - decide what has value and to whom. The seasonal areas know they lose big in a free market and will fight long and hard to prevent exposure of the system of rigged values hidden from view for over 20 years. It won't work much longer as the Internet has already exposed the deception that lack of information used to hide. With or without points the weeks systems as they used to exist are heading to extinction. With a little justice it will be the touted class actions that hasten the demise as they force the exchange players to reveal the currently secret valuations. Then everyone will realize there has always been a points system in play but many weeks just weren't valuable enough to take part without the truth being hidden from the players. It won't be the result the supporters thought they'd get from exposing the facts but it would result in a change. Be careful what you wish for.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
You are again comparing apples and oranges by using the local car dealer for the auto market in comparision with the national/international operation of an exchange company. The correct point of comparision is an auto manufacturer, not its local outlet, with the exchange companies.

Auto manufacturers do make adjustements to move inventory, such as the zero percent interest deals or employee pricing to the general public, just to name two.

The difference in Points and Weeks is that in Weeks, the exchange company looks at reality and prices by the market so that exchanges happen for members, while in Points, arbitrary numbers mean that there will be inventory overpriced for the market, which will not move, and therefore can be declared ''excess'' to be rented to the general public for the benefit of the exchange company. Personally, I beleive a system that makes exchanges happen is much more customer friendly than one that is designed to bleed off inventory for rental by the exchange company. Points is all about creating rental opportunities for the exchange company, not exchange opportunities for members.




PerryM said:
Carolinian,

The problem that a car dealer faces is that he must make a profit – they can’t use Alice in Wonderland definitions of Supply and Demand.

RCI and II, on the other hand, ONLY make money when an exchange happens – so Alice in Wonderland logic is used to insure exchanges happen frequently and whether the exchange makes any common sense is not relevant. (Need to make some money for the share holders) This is possible since RCI and II need secrecy to keep all their dirty little secrets from the light of truth.

I certainly don’t intend to fight Weeks, just exploit it. I think that II and RCI have the closest thing to a perpetual motion machine for educated owners that one can imagine.
 
Last edited:

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
You are quite wrong about where the big excesses of supply in the system are. They are in overbuilt areas like Orlando, Branson, or the Canary Islands.
That is why it is so easy for a blue week most anywhere to trade into ''red'' times in Orlando. The market forces of supply and demand say that they have equal value.

Where artifical value is being created in the Points system is by overpointing the overbuilt area. I can see why someone owning in such an area might like the points system. Points props up something that the market says has much less value than they would like it to have. Arbitrary points numbers can attempt to create false value where the market would speak the truth. That is the same reason they don't want a points system with its valuation mechanism made public. They want a hidden points valuation mechanism, and no regular market adjustment, so the arbitrary numbers racket of RCI Points can continue to prop up false values for overbuilt areas, just like the myth that everything in overbuilt Orlando is red. A public valuation system cannot prop up false points numbers.

Rigged values exist where they are arbitrarily set and remain frozen, like in Points, not where they adjust for supply and demand like Weeks.

For those who want to run down blue weeks elsewhere, they should remember that the market says they have the same value as many of the phony ''red'' weeks in Orlando.

A system based on the principles of a command economy, with the central authority arbitrarily setting the value of everything, which rarely if ever changes, is anything but an open market. Soviet customers could see the prices, too, but that did not mean they were fair or reflected market forces of supply and demand.

The market decides what has value. If what is otherwise a desirable area gets overbuilt, then too much supply diminishes its value on the market. Points attempts to repeal these market forces by setting false and arbitrary values for such areas. Again, if I owned in such an area and was looking at my own self interest, I might be beating the drums for points, too.

When a supposedly ''good'' week is still sitting on the shelf shortly before use date, then the market has said its value is less than what was assumed so it is given a firesale price to move it. That is called the 45-day window, and it too reflects market forces. Points does NOT make that sensible market adjustment for Points inventory. It is designed to funnel inventory into rentals to the general public instead.

Saying that 2/3 of weeks at eastern beach resorts have very little value may be true of the far northeastern beachs. It is certainly NOT true in the southeast.


timeos2 said:
You are getting very close to the reality that 2/3 of the weeks at seasonal resorts are very low value. Not to say they can't be made viable - they can - but it takes affirmative action by the resorts to create a demand (value) from use time that has very little naturally. The weeks advocates want RCI/II to artificially create that value, at no cost to the owners, by freely giving up more valuable trades to those poor value periods. Thus the "fairness" of the hidden valuations of II/RCI in the secretive weeks exchange systems. But each resort needs to stand on its own. If there isn't enough demand in a free, not manipulated or hidden "market", then those times go unused (at a cost to the owners of the better times who currently get subsidized by the secret valuations), need to have their value raised (build all season attractions or tie use to local festivals or other reasons for guests/owners to want to visit in otherwise slow times), close the resort in slow periods or let the resort fail.

The reason weeks advocates are so defensive isn't to protect a perfect system but to perpetuate a system that gives value to otherwise worthless time at others expense. If the system were as good as they want us to believe then resale values for white and blue time would be skyrocketing as a great deal. We know the reverse is true and it is obvious hidden valuations help support that deception. You don't even have to look at the hot button of weeks VS points - just study the operation of the two major weeks only systems and the problems are painfully clear. The alternative systems have risen to address the problems - they did not create them. All the bluster about frozen values and other smokesceens are merely attempts to continue the old ways vs a true, open market where owners - not the backrooms - decide what has value and to whom. The seasonal areas know they lose big in a free market and will fight long and hard to prevent exposure of the system of rigged values hidden from view for over 20 years. It won't work much longer as the Internet has already exposed the deception that lack of information used to hide. With or without points the weeks systems as they used to exist are heading to extinction. With a little justice it will be the touted class actions that hasten the demise as they force the exchange players to reveal the currently secret valuations. Then everyone will realize there has always been a points system in play but many weeks just weren't valuable enough to take part without the truth being hidden from the players. It won't be the result the supporters thought they'd get from exposing the facts but it would result in a change. Be careful what you wish for.
 
Last edited:

PerryM

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
4,282
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Secrecy or openness - your choice

Carolinian,

Yes, we should look at GM and Ford to find wisdom with how a well run company conducts business. The only question is – who will be the fist to hide behind the court’s skirts in bankruptcy court. I would look to the car dealer on the front line as to how to run a company.

Sure, the dealer has 12 similar cars and within a week or two he knows that they will be sold. Does he blindly follow computer logic and slash the third car to below his cost? Of course not, he is in business to make money on the transaction.

By the exchange companies using Supply and Demand, who benefits from these numbers? We all know that it’s the exchange company that makes out like a bandit. The owner who put up that week 51 ski week got screwed by II – when they gave up that $60,000 ski week they were assuming that they should have top trading power (TP) to be used for exchanging into Maui for instance. What they got instead was TP worthy of Orlando only. They had no warning, there was no blinking screen warning of an oversupply – just II eagerly waiting to slash the TP to nothing so it could make the exchange with my WM credits.

This is exactly why Weeks is being eviscerated by Points in RCI – that fundamental flaw will have the week 51 owners deciding to rent the week out next time instead of being relegated to Orlando.

Points forces both sides of the exchange into the open and the exchange company can only publish what something is worth. It’s their company and if they under price an area you don’t have to use their system – it’s an open book.

So, the battle is and always has been secrecy versus openness – I choose openness.

Just how many here favor secrecy over openness? I'm curious.

The openness of RCI Points can be discussed with simply pointing to the good and bad points we perceive.

The secrecy of RCI and II has us guessing to what’s really going on and relying on anonymous sources to establish “facts” that then are used to build a house of cards. This house of cards is then used for class action lawsuits – we already know what the outcome will be if reasonable jurors ever debate this – the house of cards will flatten.
 
Last edited:

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Well, some of you professed advocates of ''openness'' seem to be happy with secrecy of the value setting mechanism, and as long as that is secret the publication of the resulting values in just window dressing. The combination of a secret value setting mechanism and a published result only encourages insider dealing between exchange companies and developers and fraudulent rigging of numbers. It is only a sad illusion of ''openness'' that scams members
 

"Roger"

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
4,441
Reaction score
3,322
Points
598
Carolinian said:
What you seem to miss is that any system that is not open about the mechanism to set values (revealing the formula and underlying data) but only publishes the results is NOT an open system. It only offers the illusion of openness....
What about Walmart? We are not told how they set their prices, when they offer sale items, etc. We just see the prices. ("Oh, that would be comparing apples to oranges because Walmart is a retail business.") Oh, I thought that you said any system. Okay, let's move on.

What about car dealerships? ("No, that would again be comparing apples to oranges.")

Housing prices? ("Apples to oranges")

Ipods? - that even meets the criteria of being semi-monopolistic ("Sorry, apples to oranges.") Maybe that should be Apples to non-competitors.

Okay, the only system that I can think of where how supply and demand is established openly is the stock exchanges. What happens there is buyers OPENLY announce the prices that they are bidding, sellers OPENLY announce what they are willing to sell for, and, when a deal is completed the SEC demands that the negotiated price and the size of the trade be OPENLY announced. Has RCI or II ever told someone what the trading power was that would have been actually required to complete a trade? Where are these OPENLY published? (It is not wonder that TUG started doing "trade tests" -- so that someone would at least publish some numbers.)

Maybe its time for Carolinian to announce a bunch of markets that he thinks are comparable to the secret trade systems of RCI and II. (Secret prices, even after deals are consumated.) Or, maybe this system is a one of a kind. Then is it a mere coincidence that this secret system of supply and demand also has had a reputation that has been in the gutter since its very inception? (... And that Hyatt, Disney, Hilton, etc. - yes, they all have "commie" systems that publish established fixed prices - publish their prices and call their systems "vacation ownership" wanting to distance themselves from "timesharing"?)
 
Last edited:
Top