Use to work in sales at Wyndham

[Lisa P]

Duplicate - double sorry. Ugh!

 

[ronparise]

Not accusing them of stealing at all. What I am saying is how easy it is to manipulate numbers to give a false or inaccurate impression. When people look at and base decisions or opinions on research, numbers, statistics most of them have no idea how easy it is to manipulate those things so people come to the conclusion you want them to. Numbers when not broken down and fully explained can be used. I never like hearing we did this to make it simpler for everyone to understand or that it's just too complex for anyone who isn't an accounting wizard to understand. And I have to admit that I've done that very thing. I've actually had to dumb down numbers to get people able to understand the big picture.

My old boss use to have this weird thing he said about numbers lie and liars number. He always said he trusted me like he trusted extremely few people. He knew both my husband and I, we are of a similar age and background, and he also knew that I am obsessive about making numbers tell the whole truth in detail. He usually didn't understand the numbers and wanted no part of hearing the explanations. Numbers people love for someone else to understand and be able to appreciate their work so that was kind of a disappointment. He also knew that made me feel extremely responsible to make sure those numbers told a true picture because he was making decisions based on them that affected not just him but everyone working for him.

The multimillion dollar question is always who do you trust or should you trust them? When a company fails to be transparent on everything they do and not only condones lying but promotes it then......

Whenever a person works with vendors, suppliers, etc. there is always the opportunity to benefit from kickbacks. I guess it depends on what a person considers kickbacks. To me they aren't always money or expensive things. They can be tickets to a game, a nice dinner for the person and their spouse/so, a golf outing. In my book they are still kickbacks whether you call them that or tokens of appreciation from a vendor, supplier, etc. And it would be extremely naive of me to say it isn't commonplace. Whenever we're at a new resort or one that has been updated and I don't care for the new furnishings or find the sofa or chairs uncomfortable to sit in I always say jokingly to my husband that I hope someone got a big kickback. Otherwise there isn't any excuse for making such poor choices. Because for crying out loud this isn't HGTV, we actually want to sit and relax on this furniture!

But a kickback would go to a crooked employee.not Wyndham

The charge made by our former salesman is that the numbers hide illegal payments to Wyndham

 

[Jan M.]

But a kickback would go to a crooked employee.not Wyndham

I wouldn't call the employee crooked unless they were awarding contracts, business if someone paid them or to the one who paid them the most. Sometimes it's black or white but often there is a lot of gray area when it comes to kickbacks, tokens of appreciation or whatever. The intent of the giver and the recipient determine the ethics.

Years ago my husband received a ham delivered at Christmastime from a company that upon occasion did repair work that he as the insurance company and State inspector had to witness and sign off on. When my husband got home from work that day and saw who the ham was from he called the owner of the repair company. The owner explained that he had instructed his secretary to add my husband's name to their Christmas list in appreciation of how accommodating my husband was to making himself available to witness the repairs on the jobs his company did. He went on to say that my husband had a reputation with all the repair firms of being exacting about the quality of the work, that everyone knew if my husband said he wouldn't pass something, that the welds had to be cut out and done over or pipes replaced that my husband didn't back down and nothing changed his mind. Which sure made us wonder if that wasn't the case with guys who worked for other insurance companies. The owner said what he and the other repair companies truly appreciated was that my husband went out of his way to make himself available even if it meant getting up earlier, working later, skipping lunch to grab drive thru that he could eat on the way, coming out on holidays or adding more drive time to his day to accommodate the repair firms work schedules. The guys doing the work were usually union and even if they weren't made very good money. So when they had to wait on the inspector to start, finish or see the whole job and were often held up from going on to another job that cost the owners of the repair firms big bucks. We kind of chuckled about my husband being so accommodating as he set his own work schedule and accounted for his hours. If he worked through lunch, started earlier, worked later, came out on a holiday, then he gave himself that much time off on a day of his choosing. Anyhow the owner of the repair firm wrote a letter to my husband's company commending my husband for going out of his way to be accommodating to their work schedules and that the gift of the ham was given in appreciation for that, nothing more. That got my husband big brownie points of course. Knowing the whole thing made my husband uncomfortable I suggested that since a whole ham was a lot of ham for a family of three we could cut in half, buy a grocery store gift certificate to go with it and give it to a family we knew who really needed some help at that time.

 

[Braindead]

A CPAs job is to make the numbers come out as close as they can according to their clients wishes.
That doesn’t mean that they lied or are crooked.
It’s just like doing your taxes.
It all gets reported it’s just a matter of where they get reported.
Different things like bad debt and depreciation can be wrote off all at once or over years.
Sometimes income can be deferred.
You could take the same numbers to five CPAs and get five different answers.
A top notch CPA would give you all five answers and let the client make the final decision on which rout to take.
Almost anything can be hidden in a different category.

 

[ExSalesman2018]

But a kickback would go to a crooked employee.not Wyndham

The charge made by our former salesman is that the numbers hide illegal payments to Wyndham

Ron, you do like to take things out of context huh?

I never said anything about illegal payments to anyone. I said that some of the maint fee is going to Wyndham. Thats not illegal and they are not hiding it. They show it as "XXXXX Fee". My statement was where is that money accounted for?

 

[ExSalesman2018]

OP,

We just signed a WCA deal for 126k annual points at $145/1000 points for under 20k all in. MFs are around 800/year. Got some bonus points and VIP Silver through 2020 and a couple RCI free weeks thrown in. Good deal or should we rescind based upon your experience as a former WCA sales rep?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would never tell anyone to rescind a purchase. 1) Its unethical 2) It could be construed as Tortuous Interference and 3) As long as you feel it was a good deal, then go for it.

 

[ExSalesman2018]

Hi,
Could you verify for me that Wyndham Sales People are paid through "commission only"? If that's true, I'd say that puts a lot of pressure on them to either make sales or not be able to support themselves.

I would think that is where a lot of their sales pressure and inaccurate statements come from.

I find that Wyndham points are a good value IF you purchase on the secondary market for pennies on the dollars of the original cost.

Purchasing from Wyndham is a loser as far as resale goes. Would you care to speculate why Wyndham wouldn't repurchase many of the EBAY resales and then resell them at full or close to full price In my mind it would drive up the cost of resales and thereby give the sales force additional reasons why it's a good idea to purchase through Wyndham. Plus they would recoup their outlay times 50 on the resale of the resale.

Thanks!

There are ALOT of jobs that are full commission only. Not sure timeshare sales. I do not think that a commission only jobs causes people to lie because of pressure. I think bad people lie because most of the time they can get away with it.

 

[ExSalesman2018]

To the OP. What kind of commission rate do salesmen make on their sales. What is their actual skin in the game? Bonuses? Salary plus or straight commission?

The commission structure has changed so much since I was there. So I cannot comment on Wyndhams particular structure.

I know the avg in the timeshare industry is somewhere between 6-12% base, plus anywhere from 1-15% bonus.

 

[ExSalesman2018]

Not the OP but when Wyndham is selling this stuff every day for $200/1000; $145 looks pretty good and a maintenance fee rate of $6.3 is probably about todays average.. So great job and a great price


On the other hand you spent $18000 The same number of points could be had for under $1000 on ebay

I would say, it depends on what your long term goal is. You can buy ALL kinds of things on the secondary market. Cars, Houses, Timeshare etc. BUT when I buy a car, I choose to go to the Chevy dealership because I know what I'm getting. Timeshare is NOT a financial investment, whether you buy it from the developer OR on the resale market. There is little to no resale value on 99% of it. BUT the value is in vacations with your family.

I would near say that its not any cheaper even if you buy it resell, that just paying for it out of pocket. BUT what most people who own timeshare and pay maint fees find is that it forces them to take trips and do things, they ordinarily would not.

 

[sparty]

There is no "Marriott Apple Valley" timeshare property...

Maybe there was a missing "," but the only Apple Valley I know was in your area Dioxide45 and I thought it went out of business, blamed on owners throwing the developers out as mgmt company.

 

[Lisa P]

...commission structure... in the timeshare industry is somewhere between 6-12% base, plus anywhere from 1-15% bonus.

So on a modest $20K purchase, timeshare salespeople are looking at $1,400-$5,400 commission. And as they approach bonus quota levels, the payout balloons. IMO, over time, this encourages salespeople to act more like sharks (creatures who will bite at anything that moves).

 

[Lisa P]

I would say, it depends on what your long term goal is. You can buy ALL kinds of things on the secondary market. Cars, Houses, Timeshare etc. BUT when I buy a car, I choose to go to the Chevy dealership because I know what I'm getting.

When buying a new car or new house or any tangible, new, large purchase items from the maker/builder, there may be significant (to you) benefits of being the first, exclusive, sole owner and user of said items (first to sleep there, choose upgrades, make it your own). Timeshare is not like this.

Also, as a new home/car buyer, you may experience some immediate depreciation but nothing like the 60-99% immediate depreciation on a "new" timeshare purchase. If a resale purchase provides ALL of the benefits most prized by the buyer, then that buyer should not buy from the developer... even if it means they would rescind if they realize this after leaving the pressure cooker. If they buy resale at the already-depreciated price, they don't risk losing as much to resell it again.

Further, I'd suggest that resale buyers are often more knowledgeable about "what they are getting" than developer buyers. We don't see a lot of resale buyers asking questions based on misinformation they were given prior to purchase.

Timeshare is NOT a financial investment... There is little to no resale value on 99% of it.

Thank you, you validate this point.

 

[Lisa P]

I would never tell anyone to rescind a purchase. 1) Its unethical 2) It could be construed as Tortuous Interference

UNETHICAL to rescind??? "construed as Tortuous Interference"??? Are you kidding!?!!? "Cool off" rescission laws came about because of unethical, pressure cooker tactics and deceptive timeshare salespeople preying on vulnerable newbies and senior citizens. These consumer protection laws exist for real estate, vehicle, timeshare, and many other large $ purchases for good REASON. Get real. These comments suggest you are not TUG-savvy nor consumer-friendly. (Do you understand the ethic behind this web forum?)

 

[Railman83]

UNETHICAL to rescind??? "construed as Tortuous Interference"??? Are you kidding!?!!? "Cool off" rescission laws came about because of unethical, pressure cooker tactics and deceptive timeshare salespeople preying on vulnerable newbies and senior citizens. These consumer protection laws exist for real estate, vehicle, timeshare, and many other large $ purchases for good REASON. Get real. These comments suggest you are not TUG-savvy nor consumer-friendly. (Do you understand the ethic behind this web forum?)

I suspect what he meant was that while talking to the customer he would not advise them to rescind, and that doing so while representing Wyndham would not be on the up and up when he was being paid by Wyndham to sell product.

Surely he didn’t mean the act of rescinding itself is somehow unethical.

That said, I am amused at the defense of retail purchases in the face of reality. If I were selling anything and wanted to feel good about myself I would have to look for the positives as well. There are positives of buying retail, just that most of us think they aren’t as strong as as the positives of resale. But if I were selling timeshares I think my brain would probably give undue weight to retail positives.

 

[paxsarah]

I would never tell anyone to rescind a purchase. 1) Its unethical 2) It could be construed as Tortuous Interference and 3) As long as you feel it was a good deal, then go for it.

For #1 and #2, do you mean in your role as a salesperson several years ago, or in your current role as an independent party? I can certainly see how a salesperson would not want to advise rescinding for those reasons, but I fail to see how either of them apply to an independent person.

 

[ddavid1073]

There are ALOT of jobs that are full commission only. Not sure timeshare sales. I do not think that a commission only jobs causes people to lie because of pressure. I think bad people lie because most of the time they can get away with it.

Hi - Thanks for replying - I'm not sure, based on your answer, that I'm getting the information I'm looking for.

As a Wyndham Sales person did you receive a straight salary plus a commission or was it a commission only job or was your salary based on your sales?

My point is not that anyone "lies" to make sales but says things that could be true in the rarest instance (i.e. "If you use our credit card to pay your maintenance and other things, your maintenance will be free!", but in fact you'd need to spend 40K a month and pay it back monthly to garner the cash back to offset your maintenance fee. True but not realistic).

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my and everyone's questions.

 

[ronparise]

Ron, you do like to take things out of context huh?

I never said anything about illegal payments to anyone. I said that some of the maint fee is going to Wyndham. Thats not illegal and they are not hiding it. They show it as "XXXXX Fee". My statement was where is that money accounted for?

Not out of contex at all. The context was the discussion of CWA I made the point that when Marc Grey was president of the CWA hoa and Peter Hernandez the treasurer the CWA Trust was “managed” to keep maintenance fees below average. Put in simple terms that even a salesman can understand:* for every high mf contract added to the trust, a low mf contract was added for balance. I added that what they told me could have been a lie, but my own accounts backed them up in my accounts (I owned in excess of 200 contracts) my average mf was greater than the CWA mf

So you took issue with that and said this.

“And a maintenance fee being managed? I dont call over $5.00 being managed. I call it, someone is fueling their jet with the profits.”

I read this as an accusation, specifically Wyndham was manipulating mf to provide them with greater profit than they would have had if they had played it straight

The manager is required by law to manage the club to the benefit of the club members. I’m no lawyer, but I’m pretty sure to do otherwise is not legal


That’s the context as I read it: CWA maintenance fees. And you were pretty clear, that if mf is over $5 Wyndham must be managing this thing to “Fuel their jets” I dont think they are doing that and If they were I think it would be illegal. So to my way of thinking you have accuses Wyndham of doing something illegal


* full disclosure: I have been a salesman for more than 60 years, either buying and selling for my own account or on commission

 

[ronparise]

UNETHICAL to rescind??? "construed as Tortuous Interference"??? Are you kidding!?!!? "Cool off" rescission laws came about because of unethical, pressure cooker tactics and deceptive timeshare salespeople preying on vulnerable newbies and senior citizens. These consumer protection laws exist for real estate, vehicle, timeshare, and many other large $ purchases for good REASON. Get real. These comments suggest you are not TUG-savvy nor consumer-friendly. (Do you understand the ethic behind this web forum?)

He didn’t say it would be unethical to rescind. What he said is that it would be unethical to advise someone to rescind and advising someone to rescind could be “Tortuous Interference"

And I agree,

However answering someone’s questions and providing the benefit of our experience is something different.

Folks come to TUG asking “should I rescind”. . Answering that question and backing up the answer with personal knowledge and ones experience isn’t unethetical. At least that’s my opinion

 

[ronparise]

Hi,
Could you verify for me that Wyndham Sales People are paid through "commission only"? If that's true, I'd say that puts a lot of pressure on them to either make sales or not be able to support themselves.

I would think that is where a lot of their sales pressure and inaccurate statements come from.

I find that Wyndham points are a good value IF you purchase on the secondary market for pennies on the dollars of the original cost.

Purchasing from Wyndham is a loser as far as resale goes. Would you care to speculate why Wyndham wouldn't repurchase many of the EBAY resales and then resell them at full or close to full price In my mind it would drive up the cost of resales and thereby give the sales force additional reasons why it's a good idea to purchase through Wyndham. Plus they would recoup their outlay times 50 on the resale of the resale.

Thanks!

You are right that most commissioned salespeople are under great pressure to sell. But pressure to sell is my the issue. Most commissioned sales people find a company and a product that they believe in and that even with the commission the product is a good value

With timeshares, as you point out, we have a great product, it’s just way over priced.so the value isn’t there Of course the salesman are under pressure to sell as because the value isn’t there. They lie or hide the truth or twist the facts

The product should sell itself. But it dosent. So they lie

 

[bogey21]

He didn’t say it would be unethical to rescind. What he said is that it would be unethical to advise someone to rescind and advising someone to rescind could be “Tortuous Interference"...

I agree as it relates to an ex-employee...

George

 

[Eric B]

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/tortious+interference provides a definition of tortious interference with a contract. I don't think telling someone that has signed a timeshare contract with a developer that they could get a better deal elsewhere would meet that definition. The bottom line is that even advise to someone to rescind such a contract, when it is within their legal right to do so, isn't encouraging a breach of the contract.

Advising someone to just stop paying would be different, as would transferring a title to an entity that is not intended to pay the MFs (i.e., a Viking Ship). Telling someone what or how limited the consequences of such actions would or could be is safer, in my opinion. The latter, and advising rescission, are things I've seen in TUG and am comfortable with. Declining to give advice because it might be tortious interference sounds more like a chastisement of TUG than an ethical position to me.

Not intended as legal advice, of course. Just my reaction to what I've read in this thread.

 

[silentg]

Maybe there was a missing "," but the only Apple Valley I know was in your area Dioxide45 and I thought it went out of business, blamed on owners throwing the developers out as mgmt company.

Apple Valley is in Clarksville, GA it is a HIVC Resort.

 

[pedro47]

To the OP, would you purchase a timeshare in a 90 minutes presentation while on vacation?

 

[silentg]

I have a question?
Visited with my Aunt yesterday and she told me she owns two weeks at the Palms in Kissimmee. She previously owned at Wyndham Pompano. Claims they offered her two weeks in exchange for her one Pompano. She told me the maintenance is very high at Palms. She regrets making this deal. I’m not sure when she did this. Do you have any info on this kind of deal?
She wasn’t too clear on the details.
From what she told me, sounds like she was taken advantage of because she is elderly.
Silentg

 

[Jan M.]

I have a question?
Visited with my Aunt yesterday and she told me she owns two weeks at the Palms in Kissimmee. She previously owned at Wyndham Pompano. Claims they offered her two weeks in exchange for her one Pompano. She told me the maintenance is very high at Palms. She regrets making this deal. I’m not sure when she did this. Do you have any info on this kind of deal?
She wasn’t too clear on the details.
From what she told me, sounds like she was taken advantage of because she is elderly.
Silentg

She now has two weeks instead of one week so I would guess the maintenance fees doubled or close to it. Did she want two weeks or to get out of owing at the resort in Pompano because of the hurricane? How much did it cost her to buy more points to have enough for two weeks? I'm guessing at least $12-$18k and maybe even more than that. One of the papers she signed stated what the new maintenance fees would be. Does she have a husband or did she go the update by herself?

We met at the get together in January and if I remember correctly you are a few years younger than I am. That would likely make your aunt mid to later 70's or older? The information I read online about elder abuse said that 60 and over is considered elderly. Yeah that was a slap in the face, lol. If she feels she ended up with something she didn't want because the salesperson fast talked her it might be worth a phone call to Wyndham owner care and their legal department with both of you on the line to discuss this.