Use to work in sales at Wyndham

[tschwa2]

Funny thing is I am not really "that" jaded. I just think you have to have MF's lower than a penny a point and have more flexibility than most have in order to take advantage of the deals, you need to check several times a day, be willing to book immediately and be incredibly flexible. I can do all of those things and I do but I don't know anyone else who can.

 

[ronparise]

Pure points, I am still not sure how they are legit. Basically from my understanding is, the owner buys 10,000 points and then can rent up to 500k through the resort. I have heard mixed reviews on how RCI feels about this. One side says RCI knows and is ok with it, the other side said its a SCAM. So who really know. The problem is with RCI points, you need atleast 60k to get a decent week somewhere and to rent 50k points at .03 a point, your paying $1500 dollars. With real RCI points you could have 150,000 and get more than that 1 week.

Pure Points in MY opinion is garbage. Its a sleezy sales technique that someone found while exploiting the system.

What you have described, if I understand you correctly, is, to my way of thinking, "pure points" It is at least from the perspective of the buyer. What I mean is, he has the use of the points without the ownership. What you have done is to separate the use rights from the ownership. Which is what I did with wyndham points (I retained the ownership buy sold the use to someone else. In other words you are renting RCI points which as I understand it not permitted

I guess I never knew that you could do owner to owner transfers of RCI points ; Can you do it on the weeks side, with TPU?

so a couple of questions
You say you represent the developer. What developer?
Could a legacy resort, where the developer is long gone, do this with weeks (points) they own?

Why couldnt I do it? .....I proposed something similar years ago here on TUG and called it the Viking Ship Vacation Club

https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index...-liquid-timeshare-resale-market.167215/page-8

My post is near the bottom of the page

 

[ExSalesman2018]

What you have described, if I understand you correctly, is, to my way of thinking, "pure points" It is at least from the perspective of the buyer. What I mean is, he has the use of the points without the ownership. What you have done is to separate the use rights from the ownership. Which is what I did with wyndham points (I retained the ownership buy sold the use to someone else. In other words you are renting RCI points which as I understand it not permitted

I guess I never knew that you could do owner to owner transfers of RCI points ; Can you do it on the weeks side, with TPU?

so a couple of questions
You say you represent the developer. What developer?
Could a legacy resort, where the developer is long gone, do this with weeks (points) they own?

Why couldnt I do it? .....I proposed something similar years ago here on TUG and called it the Viking Ship Vacation Club

https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index...-liquid-timeshare-resale-market.167215/page-8

My post is near the bottom of the page

I do not sale Pure Points, but I have several contacts in the industry that does. They rent points directly from the Developers pool. The developer, which the biggest one I know about is Florida Vacation Villas. They Sell 10k points and then allow the owner to rent points for .02 or .03 a point. So the owners are given a certificate of ownership (Like CWA) for those 10k points and then given 500k allowances each year. Its a genius concept, but a severe determent maint wise if they actually rent points.

I love the Viking Ship Vacation Club. I LOVE IT!!!!

 

[Stark]

I have a question. We have wyndham (like and enjoy it). However, we were talked into going platinum because they went on about how we would never pay a penny because it would be covered by renting weeks through a broker. It is 14 days after the fact and I really wish we hadn't done it. We don't have that kind of money and we already had more points then we could ever use. Anyway, today our sales rep called and said something wasn't signed and he was going to send it with a postage paid envelope for me to sign and send back. Do I by any chance have a loophole we could get out of these extra 301,000 points? Like what if we do not sign. Just wondering if you know. We still want our regular 700,000 points just not the new ones.

 

[ecwinch]

I have a question. We have wyndham (like and enjoy it). However, we were talked into going platinum because they went on about how we would never pay a penny because it would be covered by renting weeks through a broker. It is 14 days after the fact and I really wish we hadn't done it. We don't have that kind of money and we already had more points then we could ever use. Anyway, today our sales rep called and said something wasn't signed and he was going to send it with a postage paid envelope for me to sign and send back. Do I by any chance have a loophole we could get out of these extra 301,000 points? Like what if we do not sign. Just wondering if you know. We still want our regular 700,000 points just not the new ones.

If it was a mandatory disclosure document required by the state where you signed the contract, then I would definitely push back. For instance, in many states the recession clock does not start until they provide you with the Public Offering Statement. Operating under the assumption that whatever he is sending you is important enough for them to reach out, I would probably immediately drop my recession notice in the mail and not wait for the mail to arrive.

Then when it does arrive, and if Wyndham will not process the recession, I would probably spend a few bucks to consult with a lawyer.

 

[Jan M.]

I have a question. We have wyndham (like and enjoy it). However, we were talked into going platinum because they went on about how we would never pay a penny because it would be covered by renting weeks through a broker. It is 14 days after the fact and I really wish we hadn't done it. We don't have that kind of money and we already had more points then we could ever use. Anyway, today our sales rep called and said something wasn't signed and he was going to send it with a postage paid envelope for me to sign and send back. Do I by any chance have a loophole we could get out of these extra 301,000 points? Like what if we do not sign. Just wondering if you know. We still want our regular 700,000 points just not the new ones.

What didn't get signed? If it is something critical to the sale you should be in luck like Eric said. But if it is something else like the privacy disclosure then you are probably stuck. Are the new purchase and points showing in your account yet? If they aren't then that means they can't complete the sale without the signature which is a good sign.

 

[OutSkiing]

I think you just hit on the crux of the problem with timeshare sales tactics especially, and to a lesser extent on any sales model that is designed to manipulate people to encourage emotional vs factual decision making.

To me, ANY sales model that encourages anyone to make major life decisions that have a major financial impact within a period of hours is by definition designed to intentionally manipulate people. My wife fell for it last week and we ended up rescinding. The fact that Wyndham intentionally requires both husband and wife (or SO) is by design NOT because they necessarily want both decision makers - it’s really because it doubles their chances of a sale if one of the two people involved let’s their emotions get the best of them. We all want to please our spouses and therefore we are less likely to resist our spouse in the moment. This approach, at its core, is fundamentally dishonest in my view.

Thankfully, the internet and social media have largely become the great equalizers in minimizing and preventing these types of sales practices from proliferating further. Car sales tactics the old fashioned way are a dying breed thanks to the power of technology. I for one will celebrate the day when the aggressive and manipulative sales practices used by timeshare companies becomes a thing of the past. We are now armed with tons of information literally at our fingertips to help us avoid making impulsive decisions.

While I’m no sales person, I’m trained and certified in the pragmatic market framework and therefore understand how to design and implement sales models using various buyer and seller personas. When I was sitting with our 19 year old sales associate who was brand new at Wyndham, I coached her on all of this while we were waiting for her boss. On how her role was to act as an advocate for the customer and that she intentionally did not handle any of the financials and negotiations because that’s a different persona by design. Her persona was to gain the trust of the customer and build a relationship to attempt to get customers to let their guard down. It’s all very intentional and very much by design how they sell. It’s very systematic. That much I know for certain.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you are right in this summary .. it is an emotional sale made during happy vacation time and the right chemistry between husband and wife plays a major role in it. Plus add in ExSalesman2018's point that there would be more people rescinding if one spouse acted alone. We purchased developer points in the beginning and then supplemented with resale a few years later .. would never buy developer again. But I do not condemn developer sales as 'fundamentally dishonest'. Imagine if there were not developer sales there would be no timeshare resorts and therefore no resale sales. We would all be staying in hotels and motels or hauling $50k RVs around to campgrounds. My believe is that it's fairly difficult to make a sale of a condo unit in the first place, let alone sell each unit 52 times just to fill it up. Developers take a big risk to make their grand resort vision come true. It requires a sophisticated sales machine to place all that inventory. I think most of the purchase price goes into feeding that sales machine.

Once people get back from vacation and into the 'grind' of our jobs, we tend not to consider vacation important enough to make a major purchase. We don't focus on it again until next vacation. At which time another salesman has another 90 minute shot at convincing us.

If it could be done more cheaply, wouldn't someone have figured out a way to do it cheaper? Don't all the major timeshare resorts have similar developer sale cost structures?

Bob

 

[HitchHiker71]

I think you are right in this summary .. it is an emotional sale made during happy vacation time and the right chemistry between husband and wife plays a major role in it. Plus add in ExSalesman2018's point that there would be more people rescinding if one spouse acted alone. We purchased developer points in the beginning and then supplemented with resale a few years later .. would never buy developer again. But I do not condemn developer sales as 'fundamentally dishonest'. Imagine if there were not developer sales there would be no timeshare resorts and therefore no resale sales. We would all be staying in hotels and motels or hauling $50k RVs around to campgrounds. My believe is that it's fairly difficult to make a sale of a condo unit in the first place, let alone sell each unit 52 times just to fill it up. Developers take a big risk to make their grand resort vision come true. It requires a sophisticated sales machine to place all that inventory. I think most of the purchase price goes into feeding that sales machine.

Once people get back from vacation and into the 'grind' of our jobs, we tend not to consider vacation important enough to make a major purchase. We don't focus on it again until next vacation. At which time another salesman has another 90 minute shot at convincing us.

If it could be done more cheaply, wouldn't someone have figured out a way to do it cheaper? Don't all the major timeshare resorts have similar developer sale cost structures?

Bob

I don't take issue with the end goal of the timeshare companies, I take serious issue with their methods. And yes, I will not back down on the point that their methods are fundamentally dishonest in nature. It's the how I take issue with, not the what. All developers take a big risk on large projects. Do commercial developers leverage the same deceptive sales practices that the timeshare companies do? Nope. Residential developers also take big risks on their large residential projects, do they use deceptive high pressure sales practices like this? Nope. Mostly because in comparison residential and commercial real estate developers are subject to much more stringent regulations surrounding their sales practices - because at the end of the day the person or company has to apply for a mortgage to make the purchase, therefore most things have to be on the up and up as a result - since a regulated financial transaction is taking place. Ideally I would love to see timeshares actually become a real estate instrument (which they are not at present in reality), and be subject to the same regulations as other real estate transactions. This one simple change would put an end to most of the problems inherent in this industry vertical. This same change would also pretty much eliminate the somewhat loosey goosey resale market as it exists today.

I would even go so far as to say that timeshare companies could actually do what I'm suggesting here, but they intentionally do not go down this road because if they did, they would have to walk away from the deceptive high pressure sales tactics used today. They would actually have to re-engineer their sales practices to handle them in a more ethical and straightforward manner. I get what you are saying that they have a narrow window of opportunity since people only visit when on vacation, and therefore it's not all their fault. I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I would surmise there's a better business model out there that has yet to be discovered and implemented. And yes I agree without the developer purchases, there would be no resale market either. It's a chicken/egg thing.

I'm actually a bit surprised that the timeshare companies don't have termination clauses that require the timeshare to be handed back to the developer whenever the owner is no longer interested in owning their timeshare. I suspect this is because the rescission rate would be too high to stay in business. I think the Ovations concept is trying to do something along this line just in a different way. Provide a giveback method for the developer to inherit resale contracts back into inventory. It's a market test to see if the developer can take back contracts and resell them again at a lower $$$/1000 points, such that over the long term they may actually bring down the up front costs of selling developer points since they may be able to generate enough volume reselling giveback contracts. If they can actually pull it off and make the numbers work over time, they can start writing in termination contract verbiage to prevent owners from reselling independently. Taking this approach would eliminate the "freebie" secondary markets that exist today (which would really piss off some TUG folks I would think! ) This is what I would try to do if I was the developer - control the secondary market by buying back resale contracts and putting them onto a controlled secondary market at a much reduced $$$/1000 rate, that would in turn allow them to bring down the cost of developer point purchases to a much more palatable $$$/1000 threshold.

 

[ExSalesman2018]

reach out, I would probably immediately drop my recession notice in the mail and not wait for the mail to

I don't take issue with the end goal of the timeshare companies, I take serious issue with their methods. And yes, I will not back down on the point that their methods are fundamentally dishonest in nature. It's the how I take issue with, not the what. All developers take a big risk on large projects. Do commercial developers leverage the same deceptive sales practices that the timeshare companies do? Nope. Residential developers also take big risks on their large residential projects, do they use deceptive high pressure sales practices like this? Nope. Mostly because in comparison residential and commercial real estate developers are subject to much more stringent regulations surrounding their sales practices - because at the end of the day the person or company has to apply for a mortgage to make the purchase, therefore most things have to be on the up and up as a result - since a regulated financial transaction is taking place. Ideally I would love to see timeshares actually become a real estate instrument (which they are not at present in reality), and be subject to the same regulations as other real estate transactions. This one simple change would put an end to most of the problems inherent in this industry vertical. This same change would also pretty much eliminate the somewhat loosey goosey resale market as it exists today.

I would even go so far as to say that timeshare companies could actually do what I'm suggesting here, but they intentionally do not go down this road because if they did, they would have to walk away from the deceptive high pressure sales tactics used today. They would actually have to re-engineer their sales practices to handle them in a more ethical and straightforward manner. I get what you are saying that they have a narrow window of opportunity since people only visit when on vacation, and therefore it's not all their fault. I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I would surmise there's a better business model out there that has yet to be discovered and implemented. And yes I agree without the developer purchases, there would be no resale market either. It's a chicken/egg thing.

I'm actually a bit surprised that the timeshare companies don't have termination clauses that require the timeshare to be handed back to the developer whenever the owner is no longer interested in owning their timeshare. I suspect this is because the rescission rate would be too high to stay in business. I think the Ovations concept is trying to do something along this line just in a different way. Provide a giveback method for the developer to inherit resale contracts back into inventory. It's a market test to see if the developer can take back contracts and resell them again at a lower $$$/1000 points, such that over the long term they may actually bring down the up front costs of selling developer points since they may be able to generate enough volume reselling giveback contracts. If they can actually pull it off and make the numbers work over time, they can start writing in termination contract verbiage to prevent owners from reselling independently. Taking this approach would eliminate the "freebie" secondary markets that exist today (which would really piss off some TUG folks I would think! ) This is what I would try to do if I was the developer - control the secondary market by buying back resale contracts and putting them onto a controlled secondary market at a much reduced $$$/1000 rate, that would in turn allow them to bring down the cost of developer point purchases to a much more palatable $$$/1000 threshold.

I somewhat agree to alot of what your saying. The problem is if the developer takes all these contracts back their budget suffers because on top the inventory they are sitting on they have to pay the cost of the resale inventory and it can take months before its all deeded and re titled etc to be able to be sold. I can assure you of one thing, the LAST thing people on this forum want is the developer being in control of the resale market. If they get their hands on it there will be no more good deals. Everyone will have to pay inflated prices for something that in the end, would still be worth nothing.

The best "Inhouse" sales model would be to make maint fee's all the same across the board (obviously per company)

If all of wyndhams maint fee were the same, 90% of the bullcrap pitches would cease to exist and it would be a sales model geared towards value of owning more points. Right now people are talked in and out of resorts all day. Some people swap back in forth 3-4 times spending 80k to chase the next base maint fee. BUT from a developers stand point, a billion dollar company can handle complaints and legally strong arm most people to keep and infact PAY for their contracts. The problem here is, if they just wanted more points, they could go to the secondary market and buy them for pennies.

Its a double edge sword. Do we deal with the complaints and have a billion dollars in sales, or cease the complaints and sale 250 million?

Some of the most SOUGHT after timeshare companies do this. They have the same maint no matter where you own, you just pay more maint for the more points you own. And if you wanted to, as they already have, make it more points to go to newer resorts. Then there cannot be any complaining from the owners. They either buy more points or go to the places they can with their current allotment.

 

[ExSalesman2018]

I don't take issue with the end goal of the timeshare companies, I take serious issue with their methods. And yes, I will not back down on the point that their methods are fundamentally dishonest in nature. It's the how I take issue with, not the what. All developers take a big risk on large projects. Do commercial developers leverage the same deceptive sales practices that the timeshare companies do? Nope. Residential developers also take big risks on their large residential projects, do they use deceptive high pressure sales practices like this? Nope. Mostly because in comparison residential and commercial real estate developers are subject to much more stringent regulations surrounding their sales practices - because at the end of the day the person or company has to apply for a mortgage to make the purchase, therefore most things have to be on the up and up as a result - since a regulated financial transaction is taking place. Ideally I would love to see timeshares actually become a real estate instrument (which they are not at present in reality), and be subject to the same regulations as other real estate transactions. This one simple change would put an end to most of the problems inherent in this industry vertical. This same change would also pretty much eliminate the somewhat loosey goosey resale market as it exists today.

I would even go so far as to say that timeshare companies could actually do what I'm suggesting here, but they intentionally do not go down this road because if they did, they would have to walk away from the deceptive high pressure sales tactics used today. They would actually have to re-engineer their sales practices to handle them in a more ethical and straightforward manner. I get what you are saying that they have a narrow window of opportunity since people only visit when on vacation, and therefore it's not all their fault. I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I would surmise there's a better business model out there that has yet to be discovered and implemented. And yes I agree without the developer purchases, there would be no resale market either. It's a chicken/egg thing.

I'm actually a bit surprised that the timeshare companies don't have termination clauses that require the timeshare to be handed back to the developer whenever the owner is no longer interested in owning their timeshare. I suspect this is because the rescission rate would be too high to stay in business. I think the Ovations concept is trying to do something along this line just in a different way. Provide a giveback method for the developer to inherit resale contracts back into inventory. It's a market test to see if the developer can take back contracts and resell them again at a lower $$$/1000 points, such that over the long term they may actually bring down the up front costs of selling developer points since they may be able to generate enough volume reselling giveback contracts. If they can actually pull it off and make the numbers work over time, they can start writing in termination contract verbiage to prevent owners from reselling independently. Taking this approach would eliminate the "freebie" secondary markets that exist today (which would really piss off some TUG folks I would think! ) This is what I would try to do if I was the developer - control the secondary market by buying back resale contracts and putting them onto a controlled secondary market at a much reduced $$$/1000 rate, that would in turn allow them to bring down the cost of developer point purchases to a much more palatable $$$/1000 threshold.

But what is Palatable in the resale market? Wyndhams for Half price? Most people have paid $0 or less than 3k for their points. 1,000,000 Points can be had for under 10k. So when you palatable, are you saying Half price off developer pricing?

Maybe ONLY make it available to purchase resale after you purchase 1 developer contract, then you have access to discounted inventory. There has to be a benefit to the developer to make changes to their current models because right now THEY ARE MURDERING it.

 

[vacationhopeful]

DO NOT GET LOST ... put that rescind letter (with it STATING NOT iNTERESTED IN YOUR OFFERING) in the mail today .. certified mail, return receipt.

If they DID NOT PROVIDE all the correct paper work or YOU DID NOT SIGN THE CORRECT PAPERWORK .. SHAME ON THEM all ... the salesperson, his reviewing manager and the document preparation staff person.

You lucked out. Go buy a lottery ticket.

 

[skotrla]

I don't take issue with the end goal of the timeshare companies, I take serious issue with their methods. And yes, I will not back down on the point that their methods are fundamentally dishonest in nature. It's the how I take issue with, not the what. All developers take a big risk on large projects. Do commercial developers leverage the same deceptive sales practices that the timeshare companies do? Nope. Residential developers also take big risks on their large residential projects, do they use deceptive high pressure sales practices like this? Nope. Mostly because in comparison residential and commercial real estate developers are subject to much more stringent regulations surrounding their sales practices - because at the end of the day the person or company has to apply for a mortgage to make the purchase, therefore most things have to be on the up and up as a result - since a regulated financial transaction is taking place. Ideally I would love to see timeshares actually become a real estate instrument (which they are not at present in reality), and be subject to the same regulations as other real estate transactions. This one simple change would put an end to most of the problems inherent in this industry vertical. This same change would also pretty much eliminate the somewhat loosey goosey resale market as it exists today.

I would even go so far as to say that timeshare companies could actually do what I'm suggesting here, but they intentionally do not go down this road because if they did, they would have to walk away from the deceptive high pressure sales tactics used today. They would actually have to re-engineer their sales practices to handle them in a more ethical and straightforward manner. I get what you are saying that they have a narrow window of opportunity since people only visit when on vacation, and therefore it's not all their fault. I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I would surmise there's a better business model out there that has yet to be discovered and implemented. And yes I agree without the developer purchases, there would be no resale market either. It's a chicken/egg thing.

I'm actually a bit surprised that the timeshare companies don't have termination clauses that require the timeshare to be handed back to the developer whenever the owner is no longer interested in owning their timeshare. I suspect this is because the rescission rate would be too high to stay in business. I think the Ovations concept is trying to do something along this line just in a different way. Provide a giveback method for the developer to inherit resale contracts back into inventory. It's a market test to see if the developer can take back contracts and resell them again at a lower $$$/1000 points, such that over the long term they may actually bring down the up front costs of selling developer points since they may be able to generate enough volume reselling giveback contracts. If they can actually pull it off and make the numbers work over time, they can start writing in termination contract verbiage to prevent owners from reselling independently. Taking this approach would eliminate the "freebie" secondary markets that exist today (which would really piss off some TUG folks I would think! ) This is what I would try to do if I was the developer - control the secondary market by buying back resale contracts and putting them onto a controlled secondary market at a much reduced $$$/1000 rate, that would in turn allow them to bring down the cost of developer point purchases to a much more palatable $$$/1000 threshold.

I agree - any business model with 99% depreciation the day you complete the purchase is broken and needs fixing. Imagine if cars depreciated 99% when you drove them off the lot?

In a healthy market, you buy resale to save a little money, but that's offset by dealer incentives like financing, greater selection, less risk dealing with an established company, etc.

-Scott

 

[ecwinch]

I somewhat agree to alot of what your saying. The problem is if the developer takes all these contracts back their budget suffers because on top the inventory they are sitting on they have to pay the cost of the resale inventory and it can take months before its all deeded and re titled etc to be able to be sold. I can assure you of one thing, the LAST thing people on this forum want is the developer being in control of the resale market. If they get their hands on it there will be no more good deals. Everyone will have to pay inflated prices for something that in the end, would still be worth nothing.

I would disagree with you on the highlighted point. At present it is a zero-sum game. For every person who overpaid, there is someone who got a bargain. But it is the lack of developer support for the resale market that drives that. Imagine what new car sales would look like if there was no market for used cars.

As a sales person how would you respond to someone who asked about the resale value of getting out of the Club? You are selling the tremendous value of joining the Club - so what happens when I want to leave?

 

[ronparise]

I somewhat agree to alot of what your saying. The problem is if the developer takes all these contracts back their budget suffers because on top the inventory they are sitting on they have to pay the cost of the resale inventory and it can take months before its all deeded and re titled etc to be able to be sold. I can assure you of one thing, the LAST thing people on this forum want is the developer being in control of the resale market. If they get their hands on it there will be no more good deals. Everyone will have to pay inflated prices for something that in the end, would still be worth nothing.

The best "Inhouse" sales model would be to make maint fee's all the same across the board (obviously per company)

If all of wyndhams maint fee were the same, 90% of the bullcrap pitches would cease to exist and it would be a sales model geared towards value of owning more points. Right now people are talked in and out of resorts all day. Some people swap back in forth 3-4 times spending 80k to chase the next base maint fee. BUT from a developers stand point, a billion dollar company can handle complaints and legally strong arm most people to keep and infact PAY for their contracts. The problem here is, if they just wanted more points, they could go to the secondary market and buy them for pennies.

Its a double edge sword. Do we deal with the complaints and have a billion dollars in sales, or cease the complaints and sale 250 million?

Some of the most SOUGHT after timeshare companies do this. They have the same maint no matter where you own, you just pay more maint for the more points you own. And if you wanted to, as they already have, make it more points to go to newer resorts. Then there cannot be any complaining from the owners. They either buy more points or go to the places they can with their current allotment.

Wyndham has to sell points to continue to make money, I know they make money from the management of the club and resorts, but the real money is from selling points. Until recently the only way to create new points to sell was to buy or build new resorts. Either way there is the need to tie up significant corporate money until sales begin. And until the property is sold out the developer, (Wyndham) has to maintain the place. Historically Wyndham tried to keep their costs of goods sold at about 15%

I think bonnet creek was the last property that Wyndham developed from the ground up. Since then wyndham tried to limit the amount of money tied up in unsold inventory. They called their strategy “asset light” Clearwater is the most recent example. Someone else paid for the entire development and Wyndham sold the finished product. So they could make a ton of money with no investment of corporate capital.

So compare that to inventory they take back through Ovation or take back from megarenters

Cost of goods sold is zero and they resell as new. Even if they had to pay maintenance fees for 3 years before they get sold, and assuming they don’t make reservations with these points for rent, their cost would be less than $20/1000 points. And that represents a cost of goods sold of only 10%


The point I’m trying make is that it makes sense for Wyndham to enter the secondary market in a big way, and if they aren’t already doing it, I bet they soon do

As I see it, if they set the cost of goods sold target at 15% they can probably afford to pay $30per 1000 points. Ideally they will want to keep the flow of incoming points to just enough to keep their salesmen and rental agents busy. But if they buy back more than they can use they will have to pay maintenance fees. It I don’t see this as hurting their budget. As long as what they paid for the points plus the maintenance fees stay under about $30/ 1000 points

Bottom line is that I don’t think wyndham will ever capture all the secondary market but I think they will be able to set the price. Ie if you want to buy on the secondary market you will have to pay more than the Wyndham price. I’d guess $20/1000 will get wyndham whatever they need and that’s still a pretty good price.

********************************

I noticed some mistakes in what I posted and have corrected them

 

[HitchHiker71]

I would disagree with you on the highlighted point. At present it is a zero-sum game. For every person who overpaid, there is someone who got a bargain. But it is the lack of developer support for the resale market that drives that. Imagine what new car sales would look like if there was no market for used cars.

As a sales person how would you respond to someone who asked about the resale value of getting out of the Club? You are selling the tremendous value of joining the Club - so what happens when I want to leave?

Exactly. The prices would stabilize and the delta between the developer and resale prices would become more palatable over time (the gap in pricing would narrow significantly).

EDIT: In fact I would take it a step further. Using your same example of auto manufacturers, what have more and more auto manufacturers done over the past decade to promote their pre-owned products? Answer: CPO - Certified Pre-Owned. What has been the result? CPO vehicles demand premium prices because the manufacturer continues to stand behind their product in the secondary market! Hello timeshare companies, is anyone listening here!?!??!!

 

[HitchHiker71]

Wyndham has to sell points to continue to make money, I know they make money from the management of the club and resorts, but the real money is from selling points. Until recently the only way to create new points to sell was to buy or build new resorts. Either way there is the need to tie up significant corporate money until sales begin. And until the property is sold out the developer, (Wyndham) has to maintain the place. Historically Wyndham tried to keep their costs of goods sold at about 15%

I think bonnet creek was the last property that Wyndham developed from the ground up. Since then wyndham tried to limit the amount of money tied up in unsold inventory. They called their strategy “asset light” Clearwater is the most recent example. Someone else paid for the entire development and Wyndham sold the finished product. So they could make a ton of money with no investment of corporate capital.

So compare that to inventory they take back through Ovation or take back from megarenters

Cost of goods sold is zero and they resell as new. Even if they had to pay maintenance fees for 3 years before they get sold, and assuming they don’t make reservations with these points for rent, their cost would be less than $20/1000 points. And that represents a cost of goods sold of only 10%


The point I’m trying make is that it makes sense for Wyndham to enter the secondary market in a big way, and if they aren’t already doing it, I bet they soon do

As I see it, if they set the cost of goods sold target at 15% they can probably afford to pay $30per 1000 points. Ideally they will want to keep the flow of incoming points to just enough to keep their salesmen and rental agents busy. But if they buy back more than they can use they will have to pay maintenance fees. It I don’t see this as hurting their budget. As long as what they paid for the points plus the maintenance fees stay under about $30/ 1000 points

Bottom line is that I don’t think wyndham will ever capture all the secondary market but I think they will be able to set the price. Ie if you want to buy on the secondary market you will have to pay more than the Wyndham price. I’d guess $20/1000 will get wyndham whatever they need and that’s still a pretty good price.

********************************

I noticed some mistakes in what I posted and have corrected them

Ron I like the way you think. I know you were a previous megarenter and speak from a volume of experience as well. If Wyndham did what you propose and got the resale market up to $20-30/1000 points, that's much better than it is today, and subject to usage over time, could be much more palatable to people considering developer points purchases like me. Much like purchasing a new car, if I keep it and use it frequently for 10 years, I'm happy getting 10% of what I originally paid for it on trade/resale 10 years down the line. Same concept with timeshare usage at least on the surface. And, I had to pay to maintain that car (fuel, maintenance and repairs, etc.), just like I'm paying to maintain the timeshare ownership.

 

[breezez]

Funny thing is I am not really "that" jaded. I just think you have to have MF's lower than a penny a point and have more flexibility than most have in order to take advantage of the deals, you need to check several times a day, be willing to book immediately and be incredibly flexible. I can do all of those things and I do but I don't know anyone else who can.

I have (2) 98K contracts at Grandview. I find that I can get so many stays with my points I have to use them with the partners also. i.e I use them on car rentals when I stay. I typically get around the .01 per point for rentals I pay around .0082 per point so no loss.

I use these a lot for extended weekend stays around Florida. I have other timeshares I use for bulk of my travel. But I do enjoy these. Also if you book out into future you will use more points but even then I can get pretty good deals

I have a Hilton Kona HI next year in summer for 90500 points in a 2 bedroom. Not bad for $742 in MF and $250 exchange fee with points protection as I booked it during a special reduced exchange offer they had.

All that said I still like Resorts in II better and you have less resort added fees.

 

[ronparise]

Ron I like the way you think. I know you were a previous megarenter and speak from a volume of experience as well. If Wyndham did what you propose and got the resale market up to $20-30/1000 points, that's much better than it is today, and subject to usage over time, could be much more palatable to people considering developer points purchases like me. Much like purchasing a new car, if I keep it and use it frequently for 10 years, I'm happy getting 10% of what I originally paid for it on trade/resale 10 years down the line. Same concept with timeshare usage at least on the surface. And, I had to pay to maintain that car (fuel, maintenance and repairs, etc.), just like I'm paying to maintain the timeshare ownership.

developer points would still be way too expensive relative to resale, even if resale prices got up to 30 cents

The only difference between developer purchased points and secondary market is VIP. I think the vip benefits have to be worth a whole lot more to get me to part with as much as developer purchased points cost

 

[kaljor]

What about the benefit of booking at World Mark resorts and Margaritaville? I can't do that with my resale only points. Isn't that a benefit that has some real value? Or would you just suggest that if I want some World Mark resorts I should buy World Mark resale.

 

[tschwa2]

What about the benefit of booking at World Mark resorts and Margaritaville? I can't do that with my resale only points. Isn't that a benefit that has some real value? Or would you just suggest that if I want some World Mark resorts I should buy World Mark resale.

It would have some value but you probably would probably be overpaying by $18,000 vs buying a resale worldmark and to book at Margaritaville off season you need to be at least silver so you would be paying at least $50,000 to book Margaritaville. You could probably rent in the off season for not a whole lot more than MF's and if you wanted to go in season I think you need to be at least gold so most would be spending at least $80,000 to get to gold. So unless you want to go to Margaritaville every year then I would just pay a premium on a rental when you want to go.

 

[ronparise]

What about the benefit of booking at World Mark resorts and Margaritaville? I can't do that with my resale only points. Isn't that a benefit that has some real value? Or would you just suggest that if I want some World Mark resorts I should buy World Mark resale.

I would never say vip benefits aren’t worth something , it’s just not worth as much as it used to be before wyndham closed the loopholes. We used to get discounts and upgrades on almost every reservation. But vip is worth something. It’s just not worth as much as it costs. Every thing that vip gives you can be purchased with cash on a pay as you go basis and the money you spend will be a whole lot less than what vip costs

worldmark for example. You can buy a 10000 credit Worldmark account for $3000 and $800 or so a year mf gives you access to the Worldmark system. And remember you can “rent out” your credits in the years you don’t take a Worldmark vacation to cover your maintenance fees. So Instead of buying vip ($$$$$) to use the Worldmark resorts just buy Worldmark ($)

And Margaritaville. Remember you can buyMargaritaville points on the secondary market

Or as mentioned in a post above, when you go outside the Wyndham system, just rent

 

[skotrla]

Some timeshare sales training materials

 

[ExSalesman2018]

For every person who ov

I would disagree with you on the highlighted point. At present it is a zero-sum game. For every person who overpaid, there is someone who got a bargain. But it is the lack of developer support for the resale market that drives that. Imagine what new car sales would look like if there was no market for used cars.

As a sales person how would you respond to someone who asked about the resale value of getting out of the Club? You are selling the tremendous value of joining the Club - so what happens when I want to leave?

Well as a sales person, I always told them their value was in the vacations and memories they made with their families. I was an in-house rep though, so it was a little different for me.

 

[ExSalesman2018]

The industry is at a point where things are already turning. They are shutting down resale companies and relief companies left and right. Diamond was pretty much the first company to really take effect. They issued a few new programs. 1) Diamond Clarity- A transparent sales process where BEFORE the presentation the client is given material to read over of the dos and donts of the sales people, and maint fees for the last 5 years etc. 2) Diamond Transitions- a program that "If you qualify" Diamond will take your property back for free. AND they state if you work with a 3rd party resale company your status can be damaged. Wyndham is not far behind and all other large players will follow suit. I see it daily. Diamond sent a cease and desist to pretty much EVERY transfer company in the industry this year. They wont take Diamonds. In turn stopping ANY resale company from wanting to transfer someone out of their diamond into II or RCI points.

 

[capital city]

I think it's pretty simple. Dont become Wastegate and devalue resale so much it's worth nothing. Why not just implement rofr? Pay something to get it back. Set the bar on the resale market and you will own it, otherwise stop the shady crap of taking away privileges.