vero beach

[Dean]

I've wondered the same thing, Jayco29D, as Dean seems to have a lot of background.



Fascinating! Thanks for posting this, Dean. So you obviously are a fan of TS! Do you mostly rent, or are you semi-retired making the rounds of all those fabulous TS you have?

A little of both. I'm still working full time but full time today means I'm traveling 5-6 weeks a year usually with multiple units. Last summer we had 8 villas in HH for a family trip of 51 people, the year before was 10 villas at Ocean Pointe (2 & 3 BR). I've basically positioned myself for retirement and to cover large family trips and at times I do rent, esp my DVC and Grande Ocean weeks. I might add that of the ownerships I mentioned above including over 20 fixed weeks in Aruba over time, there have been exactly 3 retail purchases and all with a purpose. For Marriott it was a Surfwatch week which made my 3 retail Grande Ocean weeks become qualified and eligible for reward points well before the DC came around. For DVC it was a 100 point AKV retail purchase (4*25) with the goal of selling all and keeping 25 to be qualified and get the perks, I just never got around to it. I usually do rent out my DVC points and almost all of my stays have been on exchanges. The third retail purchase was a 3000 pt bluegreen purchase converting the aruba weeks I owned at the time to points and to be qualified and giving me then Gold and later Platinum status. Of those the Marriott purchase was clearly the worst and the BG clearly the best choice. But part of it was luck and part planning. I'd say looking at DVC esp it's often easy to tell if someone is making a poor choice but much more difficult to know if they're making a good one because of the individual nuances we wouldn't be privy to on a BBS. Much like what's the best Marriott to buy? because it depends on many variables.

 

[Jayco29D]

A little of both. I'm still working full time but full time today means I'm traveling 5-6 weeks a year usually with multiple units. Last summer we had 8 villas in HH for a family trip of 51 people, the year before was 10 villas at Ocean Pointe (2 & 3 BR). I've basically positioned myself for retirement and to cover large family trips and at times I do rent, esp my DVC and Grande Ocean weeks. I might add that of the ownerships I mentioned above including over 20 fixed weeks in Aruba over time, there have been exactly 3 retail purchases and all with a purpose. For Marriott it was a Surfwatch week which made my 3 retail Grande Ocean weeks become qualified and eligible for reward points well before the DC came around. For DVC it was a 100 point AKV retail purchase (4*25) with the goal of selling all and keeping 25 to be qualified and get the perks, I just never got around to it. I usually do rent out my DVC points and almost all of my stays have been on exchanges. The third retail purchase was a 3000 pt bluegreen purchase converting the aruba weeks I owned at the time to points and to be qualified and giving me then Gold and later Platinum status. Of those the Marriott purchase was clearly the worst and the BG clearly the best choice. But part of it was luck and part planning. I'd say looking at DVC esp it's often easy to tell if someone is making a poor choice but much more difficult to know if they're making a good one because of the individual nuances we wouldn't be privy to on a BBS. Much like what's the best Marriott to buy? because it depends on many variables.

Interesting background, Dean. How do you know when someone is making a poor choice in purchasing DVC?

 

[Southerngirl528]

A little of both. I'm still working full time but full time today means I'm traveling 5-6 weeks a year usually with multiple units. Last summer we had 8 villas in HH for a family trip of 51 people, the year before was 10 villas at Ocean Pointe (2 & 3 BR). I've basically positioned myself for retirement and to cover large family trips and at times I do rent, esp my DVC and Grande Ocean weeks. I might add that of the ownerships I mentioned above including over 20 fixed weeks in Aruba over time, there have been exactly 3 retail purchases and all with a purpose. For Marriott it was a Surfwatch week which made my 3 retail Grande Ocean weeks become qualified and eligible for reward points well before the DC came around. For DVC it was a 100 point AKV retail purchase (4*25) with the goal of selling all and keeping 25 to be qualified and get the perks, I just never got around to it. I usually do rent out my DVC points and almost all of my stays have been on exchanges. The third retail purchase was a 3000 pt bluegreen purchase converting the aruba weeks I owned at the time to points and to be qualified and giving me then Gold and later Platinum status. Of those the Marriott purchase was clearly the worst and the BG clearly the best choice. But part of it was luck and part planning. I'd say looking at DVC esp it's often easy to tell if someone is making a poor choice but much more difficult to know if they're making a good one because of the individual nuances we wouldn't be privy to on a BBS. Much like what's the best Marriott to buy? because it depends on many variables.

Wow! And here I thought I had a nice little TS collection with my 500 DVC points (which have been a wonderful purchase that I began when DVC was only a year old!), and 3 weeks at MMOC/Napili!! Between you and a lot of other folks here, I feel like a beginner! LOL But I truly appreciate the input from others that have a great deal more expertise than myself.

 

[Dean]

Interesting background, Dean. How do you know when someone is making a poor choice in purchasing DVC?

It would depend on specifics so you'd have to look at each situation independently but clues are how emotional they are, that they've only been investigating a few weeks to a couple of months, that they haven't had much on property time, that they have never stayed with DVC or when they say things like "I always wanted to stay at X resort so I bought there" and/or they didn't feel comfortable going resale.

 

[Jayco29D]

Hi Dean, Based on your criteria, we made a very bad decision to buy into DVC. I was emotional (eager to buy to prepare for our future adopted kids who have already lost half their childhood in a foreign orphanage), I only investigated about a month, I did not visit in advance (until recently when we went to Grand Cal) and I have never stayed at a DVC property - unless 30 years ago at Polynesian counts. However, we did buy 300 of our 470 points on the resale market - $82.50 per point for Aulani. That was probably the only “intelligent” thing I did. The good news is prices have gone up so much since we purchased that I think I will at least break even if we sell in the next few years. The other thing I like is I have 16 nights booked in 2018 in mainly 1 bedrooms that normally would cost $1000 to $1500 per night - and I still have points left over to bank into 2019.

 

[Dean]

Hi Dean, Based on your criteria, we made a very bad decision to buy into DVC. I was emotional (eager to buy to prepare for our future adopted kids who have already lost half their childhood in a foreign orphanage), I only investigated about a month, I did not visit in advance (until recently when we went to Grand Cal) and I have never stayed at a DVC property - unless 30 years ago at Polynesian counts. However, we did buy 300 of our 470 points on the resale market - $82.50 per point for Aulani. That was probably the only “intelligent” thing I did. The good news is prices have gone up so much since we purchased that I think I will at least break even if we sell in the next few years. The other thing I like is I have 16 nights booked in 2018 in mainly 1 bedrooms that normally would cost $1000 to $1500 per night - and I still have points left over to bank into 2019.

Sometimes you get lucky and it works out, the problem is it often doesn't.

 

[Mosescan]

Dean,

Do you really think there is going to be a pullback on prices in the resale market in the next few years? I'm honestly considering buying 150 points now and just renting them out every year until my kids are old enough to spend some time there. I figure with Dave's vacation rentals I could cover my maint fees and pocket $1000/year for 4 or 5 years until my kids are older. They are currently 4yo and 6 months. If I owned long enough I could theoretically pay for them with my rental income. I have to say that looking at the prices to rent for a week at the Disney resorts, I can understand how they are able to sell their timeshares so easily. It's $10k for a week in a 1 BR!!! I could spend a month in the Hilton Hawaiian Village and pay for my flights for that kind of money!

BUT!!! I want this experience for my kids and the cheapest way to get it is to own DVC points. 150 points would get us into a 1 BR savanna view at AK every other year. Owning there over SS means about $1/point more in maint fees, but they also rent for $1/point more that SS so at least while I'm renting them I'm breaking even WRT maint fees. The question is buy now while I can get them for around $95/point or wait and see if they come down in the next few years. As I said my kids aren't really going to appreciate the "Disney" experience for at least 5 more years so I've got time.

And my other question is what happens when the RTU runs out? They don't overtly mention an end date on their website but they do say that you will save x amount of money over the length of your membership implying that there is an end date.

Thanks,

Vic

 

[Dean]

Dean,

Do you really think there is going to be a pullback on prices in the resale market in the next few years? I'm honestly considering buying 150 points now and just renting them out every year until my kids are old enough to spend some time there. I figure with Dave's vacation rentals I could cover my maint fees and pocket $1000/year for 4 or 5 years until my kids are older. They are currently 4yo and 6 months. If I owned long enough I could theoretically pay for them with my rental income. I have to say that looking at the prices to rent for a week at the Disney resorts, I can understand how they are able to sell their timeshares so easily. It's $10k for a week in a 1 BR!!! I could spend a month in the Hilton Hawaiian Village and pay for my flights for that kind of money!

BUT!!! I want this experience for my kids and the cheapest way to get it is to own DVC points. 150 points would get us into a 1 BR savanna view at AK every other year. Owning there over SS means about $1/point more in maint fees, but they also rent for $1/point more that SS so at least while I'm renting them I'm breaking even WRT maint fees. The question is buy now while I can get them for around $95/point or wait and see if they come down in the next few years. As I said my kids aren't really going to appreciate the "Disney" experience for at least 5 more years so I've got time.

And my other question is what happens when the RTU runs out? They don't overtly mention an end date on their website but they do say that you will save x amount of money over the length of your membership implying that there is an end date.

Thanks,

Vic

There has to be some hiccups along the way as a minimum but for most I don't think it reasonable to wait to try to time it. IF one is sufficiently educated, DVC makes sense and they can afford it (in my book that's cash); then I likely wouldn't wait trying to hit the sweet spot. Just like taking that approach with the stock market, it often doesn't work out. However, with the current setup and price, DVC doesn't makes sense for a lot of people today that it did make sense for 5 years ago looking at finances alone which I see as a trump card. I'm not a big fan of buying to rent but I do think it often makes sense to do so here and there if you'll need more later and it allows you to buy a full sized contract of say 150 or greater. I wouldn't buy just to use starting in 4-5 years though but if you'll use some now and more later, I might. We're a few hours away and we feel that the grandkids appreciate Disney starting around 3-4 so for us, owning now would make sense putting ourselves in your situation though if I didn't own DVC currently but know what I know, I likely wouldn't buy in at all.

Financially it sounds like you're overly optimistic on the return. Even buying, using all points yourself and comparing to reasonable metrics, breakeven is now over 20 years in most situation. Common mistakes people make in comparing are they use DVC rack rates as their comparison when they wouldn't pay those rates otherwise and/or they forget the Time Value of Money/Opportunity cost portion. The 2 best metrics are what you could rent for privately or what you would spend if you didn't own DVC if not renting privately with discounts.

As for experience, I wouldn't go all drama and take the stance that the only way to get a great experience is buying DVC. The actual savings over what you could get without owning is relatively small on a 1-2 trip basis making, certainly not enough to rush in and buy just to get that savings. That's a common mistake I see, rushing to buy conning oneself by trying to buy quickly for that next trip savings. It causes a LOT of stress, often leads to poor choices and frequently costs money in the long run. We find we're just as happy off property and to be honest, some of the off property options are better resorts with better rooms. DVC excels in 2 areas, theming and location, otherwise they fall behind about 10-12 resorts in the area IMO. And if one is trying to do Disney AND other location, DVC is an extremely poor choice to use for that and one would truly need to go with something like Marriott, Hilton, Bluegreen, Wyndham or similar for only one option.

As for AKV vs SSR, it's a personal choice. IF owning DVC makes sense and AKV is where you want to spend most of your trips, it's not that big of a different enough to argue about since you pick up the home resort reservation priority. But I wouldn't think renting is a long term plan, you're assuming the $1 pp spread is permanent (it likely isn't) and you're assuming you can't get what you want owning SSR which I also disagree with. When most people are investigating DVC they tend to assume the current setup is the bottom and in reality it's likely the best case scenario with lots of pitfalls.

As for RTU, no one knows what options there might be or if those options will make sense, they didn't for OKW when it was offered. I'd assume they just take them away on the end date for planning purposes.

 

[Jayco29D]

Sometimes you get lucky and it works out, the problem is it often doesn't.

Thanks Dean. I love reading your email replies and learning from your experience. The number 1 reason we bought without extensive research at DVC is for the kids. We know they love Disney because they asked us for Mickey watches for Christmas. We feel they have already lost half their life without parents, caring and love. I used to go to Walt Disney World three times a year as a child and it is some of my best memories. We already decorated their room all Disney and had a Disney-themed Christmas with them by Skype (sad but true - no kid deserves to be orphaned but at least they finally celebrated a Christmas with parents - us!). I decided I only want to stay in the parks at Disney because my worst memories of WDW as a child is the parking. Even as a kid, I hated staying offsite and the driving, traffic, crowds and parking far away. I hated the long lines as a kid too. We could never afford to stay onsite when I was a kid. When folks told me I need to take the kids to Disney, I poo-pooed it at first because of the bad memories of crowds and parking. Then I thought, if we can stay onsite, I would have a completely different experience - extra magic hours, airport transportation, member lounges, monorail, ability to take a break during the day in our room, etc. Now that we have the means, we can afford to be DVC members and the benefits of staying onsite alleviate many of my concerns about going to WDW. So we bought 470 points split between 5 home resorts last year to prepare for the kids arrival. I feel fortunate I discovered TUG and learned about the resale market. It would have cost $30,000 more to buy all the points we have now if we bought them all direct and also based on the recent price increases in both resale and direct points. I already booked 16 days of Disney vacations and got exactly what I wanted in terms of room categories and dates (with a few points leftover to bank in our 2019 use year) and purchased four Platinum Plus annual passes with last year's 25% discount, with the hope the kids will be here soon. It is great that we can activate the annual passes as late as Dec 31, 2018 but paid 2017 prices. We are planning two WDW trips out of our annual passes (one at the end of 2018 and another in summer 2019). I would never rent this many days for the same price we pay as DVC owners, nor would we be able to rent exactly the same days and room types we want without being owners at the various home resorts we chose. With an average price per night of $1000 (or more, esp for 1 bedrooms), 16 days in mostly 1 bedrooms would cost about $16,000+ retail - which is a huge percentage of what we paid for the points. The annual MFs on our points is only about $3200 a year. I know you say not to compare to retail prices. However, in our case, we only would rent direct from Disney or via Expedia - not from owners or on VRBO, AirBNB, Redweek or TUG. I do not like dealing with owners for renting. I doubt we would go through a Disney point rental broker either to book our own vacation (although we are open to renting our unused points to others). In the past (and even now), if I am not using my own timeshare, then I book directly from the hotel or resort company. I know it is more expensive this way but I have reasons why I like doing this. In the worst case, if we do not like a particular DVC home resort, we will sell or rent out the unused points to others. Points rent for about double the MFs. In the best case, we can start making magical memories with our kids this year. We have no regrets because DVC is one of the most stable timeshares on the market, even though it is also one of the most expensive ones. Just thought I'd share my rationale. I understand for people who are on limited budgets, they may not have the luxury to buy DVC without very thorough research and it might not make sense for many of the reasons Dean cited in this thread. I totally agree with Dean that it makes no sense to finance timeshares.

 

[Dean]

Thanks Dean. I love reading your email replies and learning from your experience. The number 1 reason we bought without extensive research at DVC is for the kids. We know they love Disney because they asked us for Mickey watches for Christmas. We feel they have already lost half their life without parents, caring and love. I used to go to Walt Disney World three times a year as a child and it is some of my best memories. We already decorated their room all Disney and had a Disney-themed Christmas with them by Skype (sad but true - no kid deserves to be orphaned but at least they finally celebrated a Christmas with parents - us!). I decided I only want to stay in the parks at Disney because my worst memories of WDW as a child is the parking. Even as a kid, I hated staying offsite and the driving, traffic, crowds and parking far away. I hated the long lines as a kid too. We could never afford to stay onsite when I was a kid. When folks told me I need to take the kids to Disney, I poo-pooed it at first because of the bad memories of crowds and parking. Then I thought, if we can stay onsite, I would have a completely different experience - extra magic hours, airport transportation, member lounges, monorail, ability to take a break during the day in our room, etc. Now that we have the means, we can afford to be DVC members and the benefits of staying onsite alleviate many of my concerns about going to WDW. So we bought 470 points split between 5 home resorts last year to prepare for the kids arrival. I feel fortunate I discovered TUG and learned about the resale market. It would have cost $30,000 more to buy all the points we have now if we bought them all direct and also based on the recent price increases in both resale and direct points. I already booked 16 days of Disney vacations and got exactly what I wanted in terms of room categories and dates (with a few points leftover to bank in our 2019 use year) and purchased four Platinum Plus annual passes with last year's 25% discount, with the hope the kids will be here soon. It is great that we can activate the annual passes as late as Dec 31, 2018 but paid 2017 prices. We are planning two WDW trips out of our annual passes (one at the end of 2018 and another in summer 2019). I would never rent this many days for the same price we pay as DVC owners, nor would we be able to rent exactly the same days and room types we want without being owners at the various home resorts we chose. With an average price per night of $1000 (or more, esp for 1 bedrooms), 16 days in mostly 1 bedrooms would cost about $16,000+ retail - which is a huge percentage of what we paid for the points. The annual MFs on our points is only about $3200 a year. In the worst case, if we do not like a particular home resort, we will sell or rent the points. Points rent for about double the MFs. In the best case, we can start making magical memories with our kids this year. We have no regrets because DVC is one of the most stable timeshares on the market, even though it is also one of the most expensive ones.

I think you took a high risk approach but it'll likely work out. Here's what I would suggest to you. Think what if you'd done everything the way you did except you didn't find TUG and didn't find out enough to go resale and spent the extra $30K. What you would tell people to avoid going forward, that's where I'm coming from except I know that for many doing the things the way you did, even with a lot of the same situation, often means they'll make poor choices. Patience it peace.

 

[Jayco29D]

I think you took a high risk approach but it'll likely work out. Here's what I would suggest to you. Think what if you'd done everything the way you did except you didn't find TUG and didn't find out enough to go resale and spent the extra $30K. What you would tell people to avoid going forward, that's where I'm coming from except I know that for many doing the things the way you did, even with a lot of the same situation, often means they'll make poor choices. Patience it peace.

If I had not found TUG, I would not have bought DVC. I would not even know DVC existed. I went overboard with what I spent and I would not have spent $30,000 more to buy all direct from DVC at current prices. I did a ton of research in a short amount of time and ultimately the decision was based on adopting older kids and wanting to enjoy life with them as soon as possible hassle free as well as my dislike of staying offsite in Orlando hotels (at least 30 trips spent offsite as a child and teen). I do not think I would plan a trip to WDW if we did not stay onsite with all the conveniences of DVC.

 

[Dean]

If I had not found TUG, I would not have bought DVC. I would not even know DVC existed. I went overboard with what I spent and I would not have spent $30,000 more to buy all direct from DVC at current prices. I did a ton of research in a short amount of time and ultimately the decision was based on adopting older kids and wanting to enjoy life with them as soon as possible hassle free as well as my dislike of staying offsite in Orlando hotels (at least 30 trips spent offsite as a child and teen). I do not think I would plan a trip to WDW if we did not stay onsite with all the conveniences of DVC.

But a lot of people would.

 

[Jayco29D]

But a lot of people would.

I think if people are happy staying offsite, then they absolutely should not buy DVC. If folks are happy staying offsite, they could rent a 2 bedroom for $1000 or so per week in many great offsite hotels in Orlando. DVC is a luxury purchase. If I were reading this thread as a non-owner, I would not want to buy at DVC. In my opinion, there is no good financial reason for buying at DVC. There are many cheaper alternatives and no one needs DVC or Disney, for that matter.

 

[Mosescan]

Disney, as are all timeshares really, is 100% luxury. If I buy it will be because I can afford that luxury and I want to share that luxury with my children to give them that Disney experience. I own a lot of HGVC points so I can stay in Orlando fairly close to the parks but I really want to try staying at the parks at least for the portion of a trip where we will be going to the parks. I think for now I will cool my jets and see if I can't manage to get a trade in through the RCI or registry collection. Honestly if I can get it that way then there is no need to even consider buying DVC. If I can't then I may have to consider it. Time will tell.

 

[chalee94]

And my other question is what happens when the RTU runs out? They don't overtly mention an end date on their website but they do say that you will save x amount of money over the length of your membership implying that there is an end date.

When the RTU runs out, you own nothing and you owe nothing. The lease is over and everything on the land reverts to Disney's ownership. They can extend the current resort (as Dean said, the OKW extension was poorly planned), refurb and start offering another 50 year contract or tear it down and build a hotel or whatever they want.

The end dates (post 8) and a ton of other useful information for the DVC resorts can be found here:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/the-dvc-resource-center-updated-january-2018.3655476/

 

[Jayco29D]

When the RTU runs out, you own nothing and you owe nothing. The lease is over and everything on the land reverts to Disney's ownership. They can extend the current resort (as Dean said, the OKW extension was poorly planned), refurb and start offering another 50 year contract or tear it down and build a hotel or whatever they want.

The end dates (post 8) and a ton of other useful information for the DVC resorts can be found here:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/the-dvc-resource-center-updated-january-2018.3655476/

The way I look at it, I will be dead by the time the RTUs expire. LOL

 

[Jayco29D]

We should start a thread called: Reasons Why You Bought at DVC. I suspect financial reasons will not be on the list. Or if it is on the list, we are all fooling ourselves!

 

[Jayco29D]

Disney, as are all timeshares really, is 100% luxury. If I buy it will be because I can afford that luxury and I want to share that luxury with my children to give them that Disney experience. I own a lot of HGVC points so I can stay in Orlando fairly close to the parks but I really want to try staying at the parks at least for the portion of a trip where we will be going to the parks. I think for now I will cool my jets and see if I can't manage to get a trade in through the RCI or registry collection. Honestly if I can get it that way then there is no need to even consider buying DVC. If I can't then I may have to consider it. Time will tell.

I agree, Disney is a luxury non-essential purchase. I have heard it is hard, if not impossible, to get a trade into a DVC resort. In reading through TUG, I think only Saratoga Springs may occasionally become available. I am sure the more experienced people like Dean would be able to comment on this. SFX has a few Disney resorts listed in their directory but they told me that they are never available for exchanging because DVC owners do not make deposits.

 

[Jayco29D]

P.S. For me, one good reason to stay at an offsite hotel/resort would be if it is pet friendly. Disney resorts do not allow pets at all and their boarding facility is not overnight. Since we will not be driving to Orlando - we live in California - we would not bring our pets to WDW so this is not an issue for us in Orlando. However, for Disneyland in California, we may prefer to stay at a pet friendly hotel/resort instead of Grand Cal over the longer term. We have already scoped out the Anaheim area and visited several kennels for boarding our dogs while at Disneyland and staying at Grand Cal.

 

[silentg]

With that many weeks, you must be paying lots of$$$ On Maintenence fees.
I have 7 timeshares and I pay a lot in Maintenence too!

 

[Dean]

With that many weeks, you must be paying lots of$$$ On Maintenence fees.
I have 7 timeshares and I pay a lot in Maintenence too!

It is quite a bit but for how I use them it's still a deal.

 

[Bailey#1]

We bought DVC over 10 years ago, with the idea of vacationing with family, those plans worked out well.

Now we are adding on for our retirement and senior years. DVC is the most senior friendly timeshare out there, especially if you are flying. Honestly, you can vacation there well into your 80's, with not worrying about driving, luggage handling, and grocery shopping. We looked into buying a condo,
but when we figured things out, it makes much more sense to buy into DVC. Sure there is more economical ways but everything has a price, and sometimes the more economical ways are more expensive.

DVC has a strong resale, rental, family interest (meaning family will always visit you) value that if something should happen to us we would feel protected in a way that our family would not be in a bind over these timeshares.

My point is that piece of mind has value to it. How much value depends on your value of time, safety, convenience, and added worries.

 

[Dean]

We should start a thread called: Reasons Why You Bought at DVC. I suspect financial reasons will not be on the list. Or if it is on the list, we are all fooling ourselves!

Unless there is a savings, it makes no sense to buy. Obviously it depends on what you're comparing to, for DVC it's comparing to on property cash and/or DVC rental.

 

[silentg]

We were able to stay at Disney Vero Beach on an RCI exchange about8 years ago. Is it harder to get now?

 

[Dean]

We were able to stay at Disney Vero Beach on an RCI exchange about8 years ago. Is it harder to get now?

Almost all of my DVC stays over the past 18 years have been on exchanges. VB, OKW, VWL, SSR, BCV, BWV and AKV. As many as 10 exchanges at one time for a family trip. But it is more difficult, for WDW it's essentially only SSR 1 BR with a rare AKV or AKV 1 BR for the past 3 years. I haven't looked at VB & HH but would figure they are available off season but not the rest.