Why the love affair with Ebay?

[persia]

Yes, it isn't eBay that makes timeshares worth a dollar or less, if eBay didn't exist there'd be some other venue that would allow timeshares to seek their true value. eBay only reflects the problem. You are blaming the mirror because you don't like what's reflected in it...

 

[Carolinian]

Many resorts still use the PCC's to dump their inventory and get new paying members. Since you said you used to use them and then quit, how were you able to replace them?

We never used the PCC's or their eBay sellers. We handled the listings and auctions ourselves and had our licensed broker handle the paperwork when the auction was over. We had to pay them their commission, even though they did not do the work to get the sale, but such is life.

No HOA would ever use a PCC for that purpose, and I suspect few would use eBay sellers connected to them. I know that none in our area did.

We used a variety of techniques. One was putting out a resale table at public events on the OBX. Another was the local broker on the OBX. Another was mailing at least once a year everyone who had exchanged in or rented at the resort offering a ''special sale''. Another was resale flyers in the info packets at check-in. Another was promotions for our members who lined up a sale with a friend or relative. Another was promotions with special groups who came to the OBX in off season.

 

[Carolinian]

You two still don't get it. We're talking about two different markets. I'd venture to say that at least 50% of timeshare contracts cannot even be sold for $1. You two are talking about contracts that have value, and therefore the sale would generate enough proceeds to pay the commission. That's just not the real world. You really need to state that in your very generalized statements.

You are partly right. There are indeed two markets. One is the eBay market, which is a very tiny fraction of the overall volume of timeshare resale. The other is the rest of the market. The PCC's made the tactical business decision to depress the eBay sub-market by flooding it, because it is probably the most visible part of the resale market, as the rest of it is highly fragmented and localized.

Also, most timeshare is deeds, not contracts.

 

[tschwa2]

The developers use the ebay sellers (that are also associated with PCC's) when they take "trade in" units. The developer salesperson accepts the old timeshare and gives a $10,000 discount or so and then gives or pays the ebay seller to get rid of it. Often I think these kind of arrangements are the POA ones where if the ebay seller can't sell it, it stays in the original owners name.

 

[Carolinian]

What you do not seem to get is that before the PCC's arrived in force and started flooding eBay, timeshares did have much more value on eBay. They still do in the broader market outside of eBay.

Yes, it isn't eBay that makes timeshares worth a dollar or less, if eBay didn't exist there'd be some other venue that would allow timeshares to seek their true value. eBay only reflects the problem. You are blaming the mirror because you don't like what's reflected in it...

 

[ace2000]

We never used the PCC's or their eBay sellers. We handled the listings and auctions ourselves and had our licensed broker handle the paperwork when the auction was over.

No HOA would ever use a PCC for that purpose, and I suspect few would use eBay sellers connected to them. I know that none in our area did.

Two things... first, you did exactly what many are saying decimated the timeshare industry, that is by dumping inventory on ebay.

Many others that were members of HOAs have already stated on TUG they've used the PCCs to dump their excess inventory.

 

[Carolinian]

Two things... first, you did exactly what many are saying decimated the timeshare industry, that is by dumping inventory on ebay.

Many others that were members of HOAs have already stated on TUG they've used the PCCs to dump their excess inventory.

As to point 1, no, we did not. We never had two auctions up at once. and we let a few days go by between the close of one auction and the start of the next one. We watched prices with the intention to spread out our auctions even more if it looked like we were putting up weeks too often and impacting price. We were quite careful not to flood the market, and that kept prices up. We typically got $300-500 for a blue week.

Every HOA I know despises PCC's, and it would be shooting themselves in the foot to pay PCC's to take their inventory. That would just be stupid. Some may use eBay sellers who happen to be associated with PCC's to handle auctions for them, but may not even know that connection. They may just know that they are eBay timeshare sellers.

eBay is a dead market, due to the PCC's. The HOA's that had much business sense have used other market venues since the PCC's came to dominate eBay.

 

[ace2000]

Every HOA I know despises PCC's, and it would be shooting themselves in the foot to pay PCC's to take their inventory. That would just be stupid. Some may use eBay sellers who happen to be associated with PCC's to handle auctions for them, but may not even know that connection. They may just know that they are eBay timeshare sellers.

Most of the eBay sellers are owned or partnering with the PCCs.

 

[slip]

You are partly right. There are indeed two markets. One is the eBay market, which is a very tiny fraction of the overall volume of timeshare resale. The other is the rest of the market.



If it's such a tiny fraction, what's the problem. Why wouldn't everyone be
Buying these up and selling them on the much larger market for a profit?

People are using PCC's because they want out and they market your talking
About takes too long for them to get out. If they can get them out at all.

 

[lcml11]

You are partly right. There are indeed two markets. One is the eBay market, which is a very tiny fraction of the overall volume of timeshare resale. The other is the rest of the market.



If it's such a tiny fraction, what's the problem. Why wouldn't everyone be
Buying these up and selling them on the much larger market for a profit?

People are using PCC's because they want out and they market your talking
About takes too long for them to get out. If they can get them out at all.

Some people may very well being buying Myrtle Beach, Smokey Mountain, etc. for dirt cheap and re-selling them through other sources. Fliping is not a particularly new concept and has been said to be a very profitable one. The PCC completes their sale getting big bucks from the seller(s). Someone buys it on E-Bay for a couple of hundred or less plus closing costs. PCC off the hook, earned their money. Buyer takes it to another forum and re-sells for a profit. HOA wins, ends up with a paying owner.

This is a basic image problem for honest PCCs.

 

[Carolinian]

PCC's con everyone with the notion that no timeshare has value. Some of the cases I have seen are really sad.

There was one, for example, where the PCC conned a widow from New Jersey into paying big bucks (probably $3K X 3) to take three summer OBX weeks at oceanfront resorts off of her hands. I am sure they told her they were worthless. All three were sold on the eBay bargain basement for over $2K each. If sold on other venues, they would have brought more. This woman was conned by the PCC out of $15K+

I have actually looked at doing either flipping or buying for rental on the OBX, but one other problem with PCC transactions is that there are frequent deed problems, especially in those which use POA's but really in many of the others, too. Most PCC's use unqualified deed preparers and I have often wondered if that is on purpose.

You are partly right. There are indeed two markets. One is the eBay market, which is a very tiny fraction of the overall volume of timeshare resale. The other is the rest of the market.



If it's such a tiny fraction, what's the problem. Why wouldn't everyone be
Buying these up and selling them on the much larger market for a profit?

People are using PCC's because they want out and they market your talking
About takes too long for them to get out. If they can get them out at all.

 

[slip]

Yes, I realize this happens but this goes back to someone being not informed.
The EBay market is part of the market just like the foreclosure market is to
Houseing market and yes it does bring down the values.
People want to get out fast and the PCC's like it or not, gives people that option.

 

[Carolinian]

Yes, I realize this happens but this goes back to someone being not informed.
The EBay market is part of the market just like the foreclosure market is to
Houseing market and yes it does bring down the values.
People want to get out fast and the PCC's like it or not, gives people that option.

I would agree that it is a part of the market, but the best description of which part would be the bargain basement. It is also, by overall volume not that big a part of the market.

Timesharing Today had an article earlier this year about major management companies saying that they were going to start suing both PCC's and their own members who used them for Fraudulent Conveyance. If somebody uses a PCC and thereby walks into being a defendant in a fraudulent conveyance lawsuit, they may find not only are they not out of their timeshare, but they suddenly have a lot of additional expense as well.

 

[slip]

My point is that if it's such a small percent it's not hurting the values.

As far as the legal actions for the fraud, that's great. If it such a big problem,
I don't know what took them so long to take action.

 

[lcml11]

My point is that if it's such a small percent it's not hurting the values.

As far as the legal actions for the fraud, that's great. If it such a big problem,
I don't know what took them so long to take action.

I am not a defender of the PCCs, however, this argument, which comes up from time to time, is of concern only to those who are engaged in a fradulant transfer. For the owner of the deeded timeshare that has the normal clause in it that the deed can be transferred by the owner. If that is done through an attorney, then there is little to be concerned with. The Attorney would not agree to process a fradulation transfer from the owner to a 3rd pary, more than likely.

Also, just as a sideline, if this line of thought is true, lawsuits would be remarkably frequent when an owner sold out. I would think. Would be more interested in how the counter suits would work out if some hot shot HOA would try this.

 

[slip]

I don't think they will file but we'll see.

If your going to buy from a PCC, you'll have to use their closing company most of The time. If you don't want to, don't buy.

I have bought from PCC's and never had a problem. I'm not in favor of them
Defrauding anyone either but they are not the downfall of resale prices in the
Timeshare industry. That's just been simple supply and demand.

 

[Quadmaniac]

If your going to buy from a PCC, you'll have to use their closing company most of The time. If you don't want to, don't buy.

I have bought from PCC's and never had a problem. I'm not in favor of them
Defrauding anyone either but they are not the downfall of resale prices in the
Timeshare industry. That's just been simple supply and demand.

Well said!

 

[persia]

There are two separate issues here, one is that most timeshares are worthless, and the other is that people are being preyed upon because a lot of timeshares are worthless and they want to get out from under the maintenance fees.

The PCC don't really evaluate the value of the timeshares they take and sometimes get timeshares that have value and so make a bigger profit.

eBay and the PCCs are benefitting off of the decline in timeshare values but are not causing them. The decline started long before the recession, but the recession allowed values to drop faster. The actually reasons behind the decline are many, some of which are the declining value of ownership (higher maintenance fees plus necessity of long term planning), marketing to the "wrong" people (people who really can't take advantage of what a timeshare offers), changing vacation patterns, the fact that timeshares are a bit of a pyramid, where the profit comes from generating new members, and an ever changing set of rules by the timeshare companies themselves.

 

[cruisin]

As to point 1, no, we did not. We never had two auctions up at once. and we let a few days go by between the close of one auction and the start of the next one. We watched prices with the intention to spread out our auctions even more if it looked like we were putting up weeks too often and impacting price. We were quite careful not to flood the market, and that kept prices up. We typically got $300-500 for a blue week.

Every HOA I know despises PCC's, and it would be shooting themselves in the foot to pay PCC's to take their inventory. That would just be stupid. Some may use eBay sellers who happen to be associated with PCC's to handle auctions for them, but may not even know that connection. They may just know that they are eBay timeshare sellers.

eBay is a dead market, due to the PCC's. The HOA's that had much business sense have used other market venues since the PCC's came to dominate eBay.

Our Hoas despise PCC's because so many are fraudulent and take money to take over the deed send the LLc into bankruptcy and bankrupt the Hoas, huge problem, and it will be interesting to watch how many Hoas go under and the discussions on how well that will work out.

 

[Carolinian]

PCC's have attacked one market, eBay, by flooding it and driven prices down to nothing for many timeshares there. Too many want to make the incorrect assumption that this trashing of that particular market reflects the overall market. It does not. Too many here want to fall for an illusion created by the PCC's as part of their business plan.

Timeshare markets are really lots of localized markets and are very fragmented. Some of those localized markets are going to be stronger than others. To know the REAL timeshare market in any particular area, you are going to need to get ALL the numbers from the totality of that market and analyze them. Some may well be trashed but many are not.

I have crunched the numbers myself for the total market on the OBX (and posted the results), and prices and volume have not really changed there very much in the broad market. Anyone who talks about the resale market without indepth research on particular markets is just shooting from the hip and simply does not know what they are talking about, with no data to back up their assertions.

On the OBX, the great majority of resale buyers are ''buy to use'' people rather than ''buy to exchange'' but I have always wondered if that were true on eBay. It generally was for our HOA resales there, but then exchangers would probably not be buying blue or white weeks, which most of our resales were, so I do not think that data point is necessarily useful for eBay. I would suspect that in many local markets, the vast majority of resale buyers are also ''buy to use'' people.

Oh, and PCC's have been around the track enough to know when they are taking a timeshare that has value even on the eBay bargain basement. I don't know why you are so defensive of PCC's on that point.

There are two separate issues here, one is that most timeshares are worthless, and the other is that people are being preyed upon because a lot of timeshares are worthless and they want to get out from under the maintenance fees.

The PCC don't really evaluate the value of the timeshares they take and sometimes get timeshares that have value and so make a bigger profit.

eBay and the PCCs are benefitting off of the decline in timeshare values but are not causing them. The decline started long before the recession, but the recession allowed values to drop faster. The actually reasons behind the decline are many, some of which are the declining value of ownership (higher maintenance fees plus necessity of long term planning), marketing to the "wrong" people (people who really can't take advantage of what a timeshare offers), changing vacation patterns, the fact that timeshares are a bit of a pyramid, where the profit comes from generating new members, and an ever changing set of rules by the timeshare companies themselves.

 

[benyu2010]

I don't think they will file but we'll see.

If your going to buy from a PCC, you'll have to use their closing company most of The time. If you don't want to, don't buy.

I have bought from PCC's and never had a problem. I'm not in favor of them
Defrauding anyone either but they are not the downfall of resale prices in the
Timeshare industry. That's just been simple supply and demand.

Agreed. PCCs accelerate the process of price discovery. They could care less of sale price because of their costs and method. JMHO, if market may substain a price level with their steady supplies, it may signal stablization and low point of market price.

 

[Carolinian]

They have trashed one minor, but highly visible, market, eBay, by flooding it, but that is all part of their business plan. That just means that a smart timesharer uses eBay to buy but not to sell.

As to forcing you to use their closing company, they usually violate various state laws when they do that and they should be nailed on that anti-consumer scam.

I don't think they will file but we'll see.

If your going to buy from a PCC, you'll have to use their closing company most of The time. If you don't want to, don't buy.

I have bought from PCC's and never had a problem. I'm not in favor of them
Defrauding anyone either but they are not the downfall of resale prices in the
Timeshare industry. That's just been simple supply and demand.

 

[slip]

If a person wants to get out fast, Ebay is a viable place to sell.

How can you say they "usually violate state laws"? There are only a few states
that require an attorney And have you verified they are not using one? You keep using
terms like "most" and "Usually", with only your small number of examples as a
comparison.

 

[Rent_Share]

The only statistic i can find is that there are approximated 10.7 million timeshare intervals owned by 6.7 Million individual owners

ebay Timeshare auctions used to run around 1500/week [Currently 1,145]

ebay does not make it easy to extract data for analysis, so I am going to make some assumptions - IMHO the majority of the listings do not close

Most ebay time share auctions are 7 days in duration

At 1200 per week x 52 Weeks = 62,400 Timeshare Auctions/ Year

Since closing statistics are impossible to measure without counting and measuring trends over time I will let the users pick a percentage to illustrate the proportion of the market eBay represents

Timeshare Units 10,700,000
Annual Ebay Auctions 62,400
Closing
Perct . . Market .... Percentage
_10% ......6,240 ......0.05832%
_25% ....15,600 ......0.14579%
_50% ....31,200 ......0.29159%
_75% ....46,800 ......0.43738%
100% ....62,400 ......0.58318%


So if every eBay Auction was to close that would represent approximately 1/2 of1 percent of the timeshares in the world

IMHO YMMV

 

[Carolinian]

If a person wants to get out fast, Ebay is a viable place to sell.

How can you say they "usually violate state laws"? There are only a few states
that require an attorney And have you verified they are not using one? You keep using
terms like "most" and "Usually", with only your small number of examples as a
comparison.

First, as I have pointed out, attorney states include many of the timeshare heavy states like Hawaii, Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina, Louisiana, etc. and so include a high proportion of timeshares.

But that is not the only law involved.

Some states have either laws or regulations that provide that the buyer of real estate may choose the closing agent.

Some states require registration and/or licensing of people who sell timeshares that are located in their state.

In North Carolina, these eBay sellers could be nailed on all three, for example.