Why the love affair with Ebay?

[Carolinian]

The most useful analysis is from the other direction, and avoids the listings that do not close. You have to look at actual sales, and know something about the area to recognise what is what. Of course, that has to be done local market by local market. I have done that with the OBX and posted results, and eBay represents a very small fraction of the completed resales there, and I suspect that is typical of most local markets.

A listing by itself means nothing if it does not sell, and the business plan of the PCC's is to keep eBay flooded, so that there are a lot of those on eBay.

eBay is the buyers market of timesharing. It is great for that, but it understates the overall market price, sometimes by a lot.

The only statistic i can find is that there are approximated 10.7 million timeshare intervals owned by 6.7 Million individual owners

ebay Timeshare auctions used to run around 1500/week [Currently 1,145]

ebay does not make it easy to extract data for analysis, so I am going to make some assumptions - IMHO the majority of the listings do not close

Most ebay time share auctions are 7 days in duration

At 1200 per week x 52 Weeks = 62,400 Timeshare Auctions/ Year

Since closing statistics are impossible to measure without counting and measuring trends over time I will let the users pick a percentage to illustrate the proportion of the market eBay represents

Timeshare Units 10,700,000
Annual Ebay Auctions 62,400
Closing
Perct . . Market .... Percentage
_10% ......6,240 ......0.05832%
_25% ....15,600 ......0.14579%
_50% ....31,200 ......0.29159%
_75% ....46,800 ......0.43738%
100% ....62,400 ......0.58318%


So if every eBay Auction was to close that would represent approximately 1/2 of1 percent of the timeshares in the world

IMHO YMMV

 

[AwayWeGo]

eBay All The Way.

eBay is the buyers market of timesharing. It is great for that, but it understates the overall market price, sometimes by a lot.

I do not understand shunning the buyer's market in favor of the larger overall market where people can buy the same item for more -- sometimes lots more.

That's in the same league with buying timeshares at full freight from timeshare companies instead of paying nickels on the full-freight dollar resale.

In both cases, paying more is needless & makes no sense.

( Just saying. )

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[grupp]

I do not understand shunning the buyer's market in favor of the larger overall market where people can buy the same item for more -- sometimes lots more.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Buying on Ebay does carry some more risk than buying through other markets. There are numerous threads where the actual unit was not as listed in the advertisement, problems encountered finalizing the transfer or being required to use the sellers own title company. So, for the risk adverse, they may be willing to pay a little more and work with a broker in an attempt avoid these potential problems.

Gary

 

[timeos2]

Buying on Ebay does carry some more risk than buying through other markets. There are numerous threads where the actual unit was not as listed in the advertisement, problems encountered finalizing the transfer or being required to use the sellers own title company. So, for the risk adverse, they may be willing to pay a little more and work with a broker in an attempt avoid these potential problems.

Gary

Doesn't really apply when you are dealing with ownerships that go for $1000 or less -often a dollar. No way mitigating the additional risk is worth the extra cost of an intermediary. Far too many cases are in this camp - very few are in the $1000-to maximum $5000 camp.

 

[ace2000]

Doesn't really apply when you are dealing with ownerships that go for $1000 or less -often a dollar. No way mitigating the additional risk is worth the extra cost of an intermediary. Far too many cases are in this camp - very few are in the $1000-to maximum $5000 camp.

You hit the nail on the head here.

 

[Carolinian]

As a buyer, you are absolutely correct. When it comes to buying, I refer people to the cut rate bargain basement, aka eBay. If you are on the buying side of the equation, it would be shooting yourself in the foot to shun eBay.

The problem is that some confuse them with the totality of the market, and they are not.

Also refering a SELLER there would be shortchanging the seller.

I do not understand shunning the buyer's market in favor of the larger overall market where people can buy the same item for more -- sometimes lots more.

That's in the same league with buying timeshares at full freight from timeshare companies instead of paying nickels on the full-freight dollar resale.

In both cases, paying more is needless & makes no sense.

( Just saying. )

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Carolinian]

I don't know about other states, as I have never looked there.but with the PCC inventory in North Carolina I have seen sold, a heavy majority have at least one questionable deed in the chain of title, and it is usually the deed from the seller to the PCC. Indeed I have thought about contacting some of those people who have paid big bucks to have a PCC take a good summer week off their hands and offer to pay them a couple of hundred bucks to quitclaim the same week to me. Under North Carolina's ''pure race'' recording statute (who wins the ''race'' to record the first valid deed wins, regardless of other factors), I would have a superior title to whomever the PCC sold it to on eBay.

Buying on Ebay does carry some more risk than buying through other markets. There are numerous threads where the actual unit was not as listed in the advertisement, problems encountered finalizing the transfer or being required to use the sellers own title company. So, for the risk adverse, they may be willing to pay a little more and work with a broker in an attempt avoid these potential problems.

Gary

 

[Carolinian]

Doesn't really apply when you are dealing with ownerships that go for $1000 or less -often a dollar. No way mitigating the additional risk is worth the extra cost of an intermediary. Far too many cases are in this camp - very few are in the $1000-to maximum $5000 camp.

Many eBay sellers want to charge excessive closing costs, so the overall cost of another vendor who charged reasonable closing costs even it the price of the timeshare were higher might even out.

 

[LannyPC]

The only statistic i can find is that there are approximated 10.7 million timeshare intervals owned by 6.7 Million individual owners

This perfectly highlights the law of supply and demand. If those statistics are indeed true, then that means nearly 4 million intervals are lying fallow. The supply is far outweighing the demand.

On top of that, how many of those owners are seeking to get out of their timeshare?

As for E-bay, it's just reflecting the law of supply and demand. Why can season ticket holders for Canadian-based National Hockey League teams (when the NHL is in session) get more than face value for premium game tickets they put on E-bay? Simple. The ratio of demand-to-supply is great. E-bay is not driving the price up or down. Again, it's just reflecting the law of supply and demand.

So, back to timeshares, why are a number of auctions on E-bay closing without attracting any bids (despite the owner possibly paying closing costs and the next MF)? If the TSs had any value, these TSs would be picked up by some party for a dollar and then put on the market elsewhere to flip for a profit.

While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Carolinian's point that PCCs are benefiting by flooding the E-bay market, it raises the question If these TSs had any value, why would they be paying PCCs and/or charities thousands of dollars to "take them off their hands"?

 

[Rent_Share]

I read it different that about 40 % are second timeshares

 

[LannyPC]

I read it different that about 40 % are second timeshares

That's why I said "nearly 4 million" instead of definitely 4 million.

Even at that, that still means that a number of intervals are lying fallow with some additional owners still wanting to divest themselves of ownership.

 

[Rent_Share]

That's why I said "nearly 4 million" instead of definitely 4 million.

Even at that, that still means that a number of intervals are lying fallow with some additional owners still wanting to divest themselves of ownership.

If 40 % were non perfroming the resorts would have impailed by now

 

[Carolinian]

Part of the reason people pay PCC's is that their sales approach is much like that of timeshare developer sales weasels, full of lies. Another part is that the timeshare resale market is highly fragmented and many unsophisticated owners who want to sell do not know how to access it. Yes, that is an industry problem.

Lying fallow? How do you come up with that? Is this some comparision with exchange company membership? If so, it ignores the fact that many timesharers are own-to-use members who have no interest whatsoever in an exchange company and therefore do not belong. On the OBX, a majority of timeshare members do not belong to exchange companies because they use their weeks themselves. That is particularly true in summer, as well as in the Fall fishing season, but is a factor yearround.

And it is not just the OBX. I have traded into European resorts where the managers have told me that the percentage of exchangers among their membership is in the single digit percentages. Of course the proportion of own to use members to own to exchange members will vary considerably from resort area to resort area and from resort to resort. One observation I have made, is that a longer a resort exists, the higher the proportion of its owners will be own to use members.

This perfectly highlights the law of supply and demand. If those statistics are indeed true, then that means nearly 4 million intervals are lying fallow. The supply is far outweighing the demand.

On top of that, how many of those owners are seeking to get out of their timeshare?

As for E-bay, it's just reflecting the law of supply and demand. Why can season ticket holders for Canadian-based National Hockey League teams (when the NHL is in session) get more than face value for premium game tickets they put on E-bay? Simple. The ratio of demand-to-supply is great. E-bay is not driving the price up or down. Again, it's just reflecting the law of supply and demand.

So, back to timeshares, why are a number of auctions on E-bay closing without attracting any bids (despite the owner possibly paying closing costs and the next MF)? If the TSs had any value, these TSs would be picked up by some party for a dollar and then put on the market elsewhere to flip for a profit.

While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Carolinian's point that PCCs are benefiting by flooding the E-bay market, it raises the question If these TSs had any value, why would they be paying PCCs and/or charities thousands of dollars to "take them off their hands"?

 

[LannyPC]

Lying fallow? How do you come up with that? Is this some comparision with exchange company membership?

Well, maybe "lying fallow" wasn't the best term. But what would be a good term to describe the intervals that are looking for an owner.

Anyway, the main point was, if there are X number of intervals available and fewer than X number in the hands of satisfied owners, more intervals up for sale than buyers wanting to buy these, then supply is greatly exceeding demand.

Add to the mix that TSs are not like unused bicycles. If you're not using it, you can simply store it in your garage until you want/need to use it. With TSs, unused intervals can not be simply "stored" until needed. MFs must be paid.

And when that happens for any product, prices and values plummet.

 

[ronparise]

Back to the question posed by the original poster:

Why the love affair with Ebay?


I hear what Carolinian and others are saying that ebay is not the whole market, and of course it isnt, but no one has shown me a place to go where there are more sales happening ie more buyers and sellers coming together. My love affair with ebay comes down to that. As a seller there is no place I can go to list my timeshare for sale where I can present it to more qualified buyers than ebay. And as a buyer there is no "store" with better stocked shelves than ebay.

There is ebay, and then there is everyplace else. Nothing else even comes close with the transparency of ebay.

If we define fair market value as the price point where a knowledgeable, willing seller and a knowledgeable, willing buyer can agree to do business, then ebay is the place to go to find market value.

 

[Rent_Share]

My only point was 60,000 attempts with duplicates (relists) to sell against 10,700,000 timeshares is a very small portion of the entire timeshare universe.


The real measurement would be

Unique eBay Auctions (closed and recorded) /total time shares recorded as sold


That and a couple of bucks will get me a Grande Drip, eBay remains the most visible resale markeT

 

[grupp]

If we define fair market value as the price point where a knowledgeable, willing seller and a knowledgeable, willing buyer can agree to do business, then ebay is the place to go to find market value.

I might disagree with the knowledgable portion of that opinion. Ebay is the place where frequently the seller thinks they knows what they are selling and the buyer hopes they know what they are buying. But know one is really sure until after the auction is complete and they attempt to transfer the title.

Gary

 

[ace2000]

I hear what Carolinian and others are saying that ebay is not the whole market, and of course it isnt, but no one has shown me a place to go where there are more sales happening ie more buyers and sellers coming together.

We've had this discussion for years, and many have a perpetual anti-eBay agenda. The reason nobody can show you that place, is because there is no such place.

 

[Rent_Share]

The reason nobody can show you that place, is because there is no such singular place.

Without accessible total sale data this argument can go forever

 

[Carolinian]

Again, where are you pulling these numbers from? How do you define a ''satisfied'' owner and how to you quantify their numbers? That was my point.

In real estate, there are always more listings out there than sales in any given period, usually a lot more, so timeshare is not unique.

If you are not used any real estate you may own, vacant land, house, or whatever, you still have to pay taxes on it. Same thing.

Well, maybe "lying fallow" wasn't the best term. But what would be a good term to describe the intervals that are looking for an owner.

Anyway, the main point was, if there are X number of intervals available and fewer than X number in the hands of satisfied owners, more intervals up for sale than buyers wanting to buy these, then supply is greatly exceeding demand.

Add to the mix that TSs are not like unused bicycles. If you're not using it, you can simply store it in your garage until you want/need to use it. With TSs, unused intervals can not be simply "stored" until needed. MFs must be paid.

And when that happens for any product, prices and values plummet.

 

[Carolinian]

It depends on what type of store you want. If you want one that is very broad but very shallow, then that would be eBay. If you want one that is rather narrow but quite deep, that would be a localized market.

I once did a comparasion on that issue looking at the number of weeks on active offer for the Outer Banks during a set period. eBay was way back in the pack. I suspect that is true for just about ANY local resort area.

Back to the question posed by the original poster:

Why the love affair with Ebay?


I hear what Carolinian and others are saying that ebay is not the whole market, and of course it isnt, but no one has shown me a place to go where there are more sales happening ie more buyers and sellers coming together. My love affair with ebay comes down to that. As a seller there is no place I can go to list my timeshare for sale where I can present it to more qualified buyers than ebay. And as a buyer there is no "store" with better stocked shelves than ebay.

There is ebay, and then there is everyplace else. Nothing else even comes close with the transparency of ebay.

If we define fair market value as the price point where a knowledgeable, willing seller and a knowledgeable, willing buyer can agree to do business, then ebay is the place to go to find market value.

 

[Carolinian]

We've had this discussion for years, and many have a perpetual anti-eBay agenda. The reason nobody can show you that place, is because there is no such place.

''Anti-eBay''???? Hardly! I am quite realistic about what eBay is, a great bargain basement for buyers, but a foolish place to try to sell. The cause for both is simple, that it is being deliberately flooded by PCC's as part of their business strategy, and that it is because it is one of the most visible markets in a highly fragmented overall resale market.

And I was hardly ''anti-eBay'' during the years I used eBay to move our HOA inventory to new buyers at decent prices. Of course, the dynamics, in that pre-PCC period were quite different on eBay.

 

[ace2000]

''Anti-eBay''???? Hardly! I am quite realistic about what eBay is, a great bargain basement for buyers, but a foolish place to try to sell. The cause for both is simple, that it is being deliberately flooded by PCC's as part of their business strategy, and that it is because it is one of the most visible markets in a highly fragmented overall resale market.

And I was hardly ''anti-eBay'' during the years I used eBay to move our HOA inventory to new buyers at decent prices. Of course, the dynamics, in that pre-PCC period were quite different on eBay.

So, when you tell others that eBay is a great place to buy, do you tell them to stay away from the PCC companies?

On one hand you're saying buy from eBay, but the vast majority of the timeshare inventory is from the PCC companies, who as you say, prepare the so-called "invalid" deeds.

I'm not really understanding that discrepancy.

 

[ronparise]

It depends on what type of store you want. If you want one that is very broad but very shallow, then that would be eBay. If you want one that is rather narrow but quite deep, that would be a localized market.

I once did a comparasion on that issue looking at the number of weeks on active offer for the Outer Banks during a set period. eBay was way back in the pack. I suspect that is true for just about ANY local resort area.

There may be someplace to go on NC for a good selection of Outer Banks properties but I think thats somewhat unusual.

And I know there are brokers like the op that can find me what I want in Worldmark at a fair price. But thats unusual too.

I dont think you can take these specific examples and come to the conclusion that there are similar local marketplaces for every timeshare or even the majority of timeshares. I wish there were. Ive been looking for someone in New Orleans to handle my business. I cant find them. and I think my experience is the norm

which leaves ebay

 

[Carolinian]

So, when you tell others that eBay is a great place to buy, do you tell them to stay away from the PCC companies?

On one hand you're saying buy from eBay, but the vast majority of the timeshare inventory is from the PCC companies, who as you say, prepare the so-called "invalid" deeds.

I'm not really understanding that discrepancy.

I often warn them about the closing scam by virtually all of the PCC sellers, and the need to have someone look at the deed chain where the PCC is involved.

As to buying from the PCC sellers, they have already scammed the people who had owned those weeks, and in the scheme of things it is better for a new owner to buy on eBay than for the week to end up in a Viking ship.