Why the love affair with Ebay?

[Ridewithme38]

Actually this isn't true. While privacy and disclosure rules prevent giving exact details it has been done in at least four different states I have been made aware of that transactions shown to be fraudulent (as in taken in for large amounts with a promise to get the owner out but were then dumped into a Viking ship type trust & abandoned or where just abandoned by the group without any true legal transfer occurring) and the original owner did find themselves out the money paid and still with large obligations in their name & affecting their credit.

It is not a toothless threat or an untrue one. If a reader believes what you say and waste's their money with one of those "relief" groups they too can be a victim - again. Don't risk it. There are legal & certain ways to get out if you have to at little to no direct cost and only with potentially a hit to your credit. The other way is potentially far more costly in many ways and should never be recommended or even considered as a way "out".

Saying it is an unfounded risk or untrue is a false statement.

This is just wrong! The fact that an owner paid to sell his Timeshare to another entity and was held responsible for their actions is Rediculous!! If i sold my car to someone who robbed a bank with it, or even if i legally sold a gun to someone who murdered someone with it, i am NOT held responsible because i had NO PREVIOUS KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WOULD OCCUR....This means we can't even safely sell out Timeshares ourselves unless we can guarantee that the buy will pay the MF, which is impossible...

I've got to call BS....If a TS Company or HOA tried to do this to me, they would end up in court and they'd end up owing ME damages!

How can you sell your Timeshare if you are now responsible for every action the new owner takes???

 

[timeos2]

This is just wrong! The fact that an owner paid to sell his Timeshare to another entity and was held responsible for their actions is Rediculous!! If i sold my car to someone who robbed a bank with it, or even if i legally sold a gun to someone who murdered someone with it, i am NOT held responsible because i had NO PREVIOUS KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WOULD OCCUR....This means we can't even safely sell out Timeshares ourselves unless we can guarantee that the buy will pay the MF, which is impossible...

I've got to call BS....If a TS Company or HOA tried to do this to me, they would end up in court and they'd end up owing ME damages!

How can you sell your Timeshare if you are now responsible for every action the new owner takes???

You are only responsible for one very simple action. Making sure your ownership is passed legally to a real buyer who is willing to take over that obligation until they move it on. Do that simple step - have the transfer legally recorded and your days of ownership are over.

Try to use questionable ways or to "get out" at the expense of others (even if you did pay the "relief" folks who never really plan to do things as promised) and yes, you live with the uncertainty and chance that in fact you aren't "out" at all. It's not illegal nor is it harassment or anything else you feel it could be. It is simply holding the owner to what they agreed to until they properly & legally are no longer bound by their agreement. Very simple.

 

[Ridewithme38]

You are only responsible for one very simple action. Making sure your ownership is passed legally to a real buyer who is willing to take over that obligation until they move it on. Do that simple step - have the transfer legally recorded and your days of ownership are over.

Try to use questionable ways or to "get out" at the expense of others (even if you did pay the "relief" folks who never really plan to do things as promised) and yes, you live with the uncertainty and chance that in fact you aren't "out" at all. It's not illegal nor is it harassment or anything else you feel it could be. It is simply holding the owner to what they agreed to until they properly & legally are no longer bound by their agreement. Very simple.

OH, so we are talking about Different things, i'm talking about legally paying a PCC or Pirate Ship LLC to take over your ownership in exchange for giving them several thousands of dollars...Signing the deed over legally, transferring the membership legally...The new LEGAL owner would be the PCC or Pirate Ship LLC, from that point on, unless you have some sort of document that mentions contract fraud or intent to defraud, you are no longer responsible for that deed or membership, You are no longer bound by the HOA's agreement

I don't really know what kind of legal webs these HOA's are stringing together to blame previous owners for current owners actions, but it shouldn't be held up in court, it seems shaky at best and if they tried to pull it on me, or someone knowledgable about the law...They would be shut down FAST....In no way is this legal

It IS akin to giving a life sentence to a person who sold a car to a person who comited murder, when they had no knowledge of the buyers intent, no court would ok that, this is why i don't buy it...No way could that hold up in court

 

[timeos2]

When the PLAN of the "legally" transferred ownership is to abandon it in any way and to ignore the payments due then it has been proven that it isn't legally transferred at all. THAT is what we are talking about. Fraudulent "transfers" meant only to make money for the scammers and to stick the Association - never to actually own, pay for & use the ownership. When that is the case then there is no legal transfer & the onus of payment/ownership rightfully reverts to the original seller despite the fact that they may have paid hundreds or thousands and still have the responsibility. Don't advise doing it as it may seriously bite those that try it not to mention cost them far more than handling it correctly is likely to.

 

[pacodemountainside]

I think most people who are killed by cars as a result of manslaughter.

Perhaps guns would be a better method of exterminating but no, seller generally would not be responsible.

Imputing third party liability to unknowledgeable party generally does not fly at the Court House.

 

[AwayWeGo]

I Swear I Had No Idea. (Blueprint For The Next Big Gimmick.)

Imputing third party liability to unknowledgeable party generally does not fly at the Court House.

All righty then.

Only thing the PCC-LLC Viking Funeral Ship operators need to do now is come up with a slick way of building in some Plausible Deniability.

How hard can that be in 21st Century U.S.A. ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Ridewithme38]

All righty then.

Only thing the PCC-LLC Viking Funeral Ship operators need to do now is come up with a slick way of building in some Plausible Deniability.

How hard can that be in 21st Century U.S.A. ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

I'm not even sure the PCC's or Viking Ship LLCs are the ones that need plausible deniability...Don't 99% of them already state that they are going to try to 'sell your timeshare' or that they 'already have a buyer', that would seem to be plausible deniability right there??

Yes, Timeo, those sellers that are proven to have intentionally sold to the PCC, Viking Ship LLC with previous knowledge of their only intent being to dispose of the timeshare through fraud MAY have their sale invalidated and MAYBE will have the courts decided that back Maintenance fees are due.....

But you are grasping at straws, ALL of those things have to be PROVEN...Just a couple are hard...all of them, the odds of that are slim to none, the courts will really only be able to prove what you know, if you are the owner/employee of the PCC Viking Ship LLC OR if you have a written contract stating your criminal intent.....and what kind of an idiot would make a written contract outlining illegal activity??

 

[pacodemountainside]

All righty then.

Only thing the PCC-LLC Viking Funeral Ship operators need to do now is come up with a slick way of building in some Plausible Deniability.

How hard can that be in 21st Century U.S.A. ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

No problem! Just retain those Arkansas lawyers that drew up VOI Trust of 1991.

Allows change of use years at whim

Allows Developer(EH) to legally steal 90% of inventory at 60 days with out paying

Allows three Developer executives to run without allowing 4 owners to be elected

Allows Wyndham to collect $299 transfer of ownership fee for service worth about $10

 

[vacationhopeful]

.....
Allows change of use years at whim

Allows Developer(EH) to legally steal 90% of inventory at 60 days with out paying

Allows three Developer executives to run without allowing 4 owners to be elected

Allows Wyndham to collect $299 transfer of ownership fee for service worth about $10

You missed the cost of the Guest Certificates going from $29 to $49 to $99 inside of a single 4 month period of time after the online system allowed you (the points owner) to update reservation with the guest's name and address.

 

[Carolinian]

I think most people who are killed by cars as a result of manslaughter.

Perhaps guns would be a better method of exterminating but no, seller generally would not be responsible.

Imputing third party liability to unknowledgeable party generally does not fly at the Court House.

I think one thing that should put anyone on notice that something was not kosher in a PCC transaction is that the ''seller'' is paying a big sum of money to ''get out''. It is convincing circumstantial evidence.

Remember that Fraudulent Conveyance is in civil court, where the standard of proof is'' the greater weight of the evidence'', a much lower standard than ''beyond a reasonable doubt'' like criminal court.

To give an analogy from criminal court, if some shady character on a street corner offers to sell you an item at an abnormally low price, and you buy it, that is enough to convict you of receiving stolen goods because the circumstances and price would put a reasonable person on notice that it was likely stolen.

If that works in criminal court, and it does, there is case law to that effect, it will certainly work in civil court which has the lower standard of proof.

I will give you a real life example that happened to a former client of mine when he was in Florida. He ran a restaurant, and an employee asked to borrow his car, and he allowed it. The employee used the car to rob a bank and got caught. My client was charged and convicted of being an accessory to the robbery, even though he swore he had no idea what his employee was going to do with it. (To be clear, I represented him some years later in a civil matter in North Carolina).

 

[Ridewithme38]

I will give you a real life example that happened to a former client of mine in Florida. He ran a restaurant, and an employee asked to borrow his car, and he allowed it. The employee used the car to rob a bank and got caught. My client was charged and convicted of being an accessory to the robbery, even though he swore he had no idea what his employee was going to do with it.

Please don't tell us, you were the one defending him against that charge!

The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused, if i am 2 yrs behind on my MF's about to be a third, retired with no major income coming in....and a company calls me and tells me for $3000 they can find a buyer for my TS and get me out of the obligation.....A reasonable person would think that's Expensive, but would have no thoughts about illegality of it....The only reason WE question it, is we are VERY VERY VERY Knowledgeable on the subject...This is much different then buying a 2012 Mercedes for $750, because the market value for this service isn't well known, it's very likely that a guy that paid $30,000 to get in, might think it costs $3,000 to get out...because honestly, it does

 

[twbivens]

I think one thing that should put anyone on notice that something was not kosher in a PCC transaction is that the ''seller'' is paying a big sum of money to ''get out''. It is convincing circumstantial evidence.

Remember that Fraudulent Conveyance is in civil court, where the standard of proof is'' the greater weight of the evidence'', a much lower standard than ''beyond a reasonable doubt'' like criminal court.

To give an analogy from criminal court, if some shady character on a street corner offers to sell you an item at an abnormally low price, and you buy it, that is enough to convict you of receiving stolen goods because the circumstances and price would put a reasonable person on notice that it was likely stolen.

The seller paying a big sum of money to "Get Out" is exactly what is happening because demand is so low for the product owned. You continue to reference analogies and imply selling "at an abnormally low price" .... I simply do not think the prices are "abnormally low" ... they are what the market actually is.

To be hamstrung with perpetual (lifetime) MF's with no other course of action other than desperate means b/c the market has disappeared for the product due to those same MFs being hiked up too high to hold value for the product is not sustainable ---- and not the seller's fault.

 

[Carolinian]

I have never practiced law in Florida. I represented him in a civil matter regarding a business dispute in eastern North Carolina.

In your second paragraph, you are blurring civil and criminal standards of evidence. The burden of proof in civil court is the ''greater weight of the evidence'' meaning a scintilla (the smallest amount that can be measured) on one side more than the other.

If a seller wants to argue that it is reasonable to pay a PCC a big sum, I suspect that will open the door to the HOA to present real world sales data that will blow that argument right out of the water. Likely, it will play out just like it has in criminal court with possession of stolen goods when someone buys under questionable circumstances.

Please don't tell us, you were the one defending him against that charge!

The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused, if i am 2 yrs behind on my MF's about to be a third, retired with no major income coming in....and a company calls me and tells me for $3000 they can find a buyer for my TS and get me out of the obligation.....A reasonable person would think that's Expensive, but would have no thoughts about illegality of it....The only reason WE question it, is we are VERY VERY VERY Knowledgeable on the subject...This is much different then buying a 2012 Mercedes for $750, because the market value for this service isn't well known, it's very likely that a guy that paid $30,000 to get in, might think it costs $3,000 to get out...because honestly, it does

 

[pschrodt]

Puzzling acronyms

I have been a tugger for at least two years and am constantly confounded by the liberal use of acronyms without any explanation. In this thread alone I find the following examples: PCC, ROFR, OP, OBX, Mods. And there are quite a few more in other threads. Wouldn't it be good if the first time in a thread someone uses one or another of these that they would indicate what they mean?

Lost in confusion despite my PhD,
Paul S.

 

[DAman]

I have been a tugger for at least two years and am constantly confounded by the liberal use of acronyms without any explanation. In this thread alone I find the following examples: PCC, ROFR, OP, OBX, Mods. And there are quite a few more in other threads. Wouldn't it be good if the first time in a thread someone uses one or another of these that they would indicate what they mean?

Lost in confusion despite my PhD,
Paul S.

There is a place where they are listed. Someone will post link I am sure. Hang around here and you will get to know them-I did.

PCC post card company
OP original poster
ROFR right of first refusal
Mods-Moderators

 

[csxjohn]

I have been a tugger for at least two years and am constantly confounded by the liberal use of acronyms without any explanation. In this thread alone I find the following examples: PCC, ROFR, OP, OBX, Mods. And there are quite a few more in other threads. Wouldn't it be good if the first time in a thread someone uses one or another of these that they would indicate what they mean?

Lost in confusion despite my PhD,
Paul S.

I feel your pain. I'm on a forum for Boston Whaler owners and the owner of the site does not allow acronyms. It is so much easier reading there than it is here.

Some pop up here all the time and I'm used to them. TS, MF, OP are a few. But when people start using the initials of the resorts, I too get lost.

 

[grupp]

Fraudulent Coneyance

Regardless of what side of the agurement you fall on, the concept of Fraudulent Conveyance is intriguing. We have two parrell thread going on right now, this one and the one regarding agreement that resort want the seller to sign regarding future maintainence.

There were couple of interesting things I found in researching Fraudulent Conveyance. First, in regard to proving intent, there are rules called "badges of fraud", one of which is concealing transaction by failure to record a deed. So, if the PCC takes posession of the timeshare does not record the deed after taking possesion, this could be used to prove the intent of fraud. However, the presence of the one of more of the "badges of fraud" does not automatically make the transfer fraudulent. The court would consider all other aspect of the transaction.

Probably the most significant aspect of the Fraudulent Conveyance are what are the remdies in the event of fraud. There are a number of remidies and it does include reversving the transaction. So, if you are pay one of these PCC's to take you timeshare and it is not handled properly, it could come back to you. However, the risk of this is rather small as the HOA or Management Company would have to initiate the suit. Althought at some point the industy may need to kick back at the PCC companies and one of the larger companies could file suit if they have enough defaulted deeds going through a single PCC.

In my opinion, if you are giving your timeshare to one of the PCC, or anyone else for that matter, you simply can't just sign you name and walk away. You should make sure that eveything is done correctly including recording the deed in the new owners name, to limit the risk of anything happening in the future.

Also, in Flordia you can only file suit for Fraudulent Conveyance going back 4 years. So, the potentiall liability is not indefinate.

This would make for an interesting court case if there were to be a suit filed in the future.

Gary

 

[pacodemountainside]

Acronyms

I have been a tugger for at least two years and am constantly confounded by the liberal use of acronyms without any explanation. In this thread alone I find the following examples: PCC, ROFR, OP, OBX, Mods. And there are quite a few more in other threads. Wouldn't it be good if the first time in a thread someone uses one or another of these that they would indicate what they mean?

Lost in confusion despite my PhD,
Paul S.

Ask and ye shall receive. If it relates to TSs and can't be found here it probably does not exist. Cannot help with texting lingo. See http://www.netlingo.com/acronyms.php Think resort symbols come from II and RCI Directories.



Timeshare Glossary & Forum Acronyms


The following is a list of the more common terms. acronyms and jargon used in postings and descriptions on TS Forums.

10-100

Have to go to bathroom

10-17

Have to get a cold beer/Margaritta


AC

Accommodation Certificate - An extra week offered by II as an incentive for depositing a high-demand week

BF

Boy friend



BR

Bedroom

Bribe

Payment to get one to a sales pitch

CWA

Wyndham membership plan vs deeded ownership



DAE

Dial an Exchange - Independent Exchange company

Developer

Corporations like Wyndham and Westgate that put up $300K condo, divide into 52 Intervals and sell for $1,500,000



DBW

Developer Bonus Week



DH

Dear/ Deceased/Darling/Dumb/Darn Husband

DIL

Daughter in law

DVC

Disney Vacation Club



DS

Dear/Deceased/Darling/Dumb/Darn Spouse or son



DW

Dear/Deceased/Darling/Dumb/Darn Wife

EH

Extra Holidays, WWW rental arm



EOY

"Every Other Year" - a timeshare you get to use every other year



EY

"Every Year" - a timeshare you get to use every year.



FIL

Father in Law

Fixed Week

One owns specific unit and week at specifice resort. Great for hot events.



Floating Week

Owner requests a desired date from the timeshare resort every year subject to availability at the time of request.



FF

Fairfield Resorts, now Wyndham

Fractional ownership

Fancy name for owing several weeks at same resort



FK

"Full Kitchen"



FROR or ROFR

"First Right of Refusal". Used by some resorts to control resale values.



FWIW

For What its Worth

GF

Girl friend


GBR

Guest Bedroom



GC

"Gold Crown". An RCI designation of their highest quality resort. or Gift/Guest Certificate



GMTA

Great Minds Think Alike



GV

Garden View or Mountain View (or occasionally, a parking lot view)



HGVC

Hilton Grand Vacation Club



HHI

Hilton Head Island



HTD

Have to Disagree



HTH

Hope this Helps

Incentive

Nice word for bribe



II

"Interval International", an exchange company.



IMHO

In my Honest/Humble Opinion



IMO

In my Opinion



Interval

One timeshare week.



IOW

In Other Words

LOL

Lot's of luck or laughing out loud



JK or J/K

Just Kidding



JMHO

Just my Humble/Honest Opinion



KISS

Keep it Simple Stupid



LH

"Lease hold". Timeshare is deeded property on leased land.

LK

Limited kitchen



LMK

Let me Know



LTNS

Long Time No See



Lockout

If allowed, a timeshare unit can be subdivided and used as two smaller units for the purposes of use or exchange. e.g.: a three bedroom unit might be split and deposited as one 2Br unit and one 1Br unit giving the owner two weeks for use or exchange.



Lurker

Non participating visitor to BBS sites.

MF

Maintenance fee



MIL

Mother in Law

MOD

Person who keeps posters honest and Forum on track



MIR

Mail in Rebate



MROP

Multi Resort Ownership Plan



MVCI

Marriott Vacation Club International

Owner update

Euphasim for TS sales pitch generally without a meaningful bribe



NB

Nearby or newbie



NP

No Problem



OBO

"Or Best Offer".



OBX

Outer Banks of North Carolina



OF

Ocean Front



OMG

Oh My God/Gosh



OP

Original Poster (who started the thread)



OT

Off Topic



OTOH

On The Other Hand



OV

Ocean View


Parking Pass Tango

Body snatcher

Personal Rep

Salesperson who is your personal TS genie

PHD

Piled higher and deeper



PM

Private Message



PCC

Post Card Company - company who sends postcards to unsuspecting buyers recommending they pay thousands of dollars to give their timeshare away.



POV

Point of View



Profeco

"Procuraduria Federal De Consumido" or Federal Bureau of Consumer interests in Mexico - an organization known to assist timeshare owners who have been scammed or ripped off by Mexican timeshares.



Rack rate

Non discounted hotel room rate.



RCI

"Resorts Condominium International", an exchange company.



RHC

Royal Holiday Club



ROFR

Right of First Refusal



Right of Rescission

Time period after sale in which the buyer can cancel the sale.



RTU

"Right To Use". Timeshare ownership has an expiration date.


Seagul/Sea-gul

David Siegel who owns Westgate TSs and $100 million pad in Florida


Sales weasel

Most TS sales people

Scammer

Person who cold calls offering lots of money for your worthless TS


Shill

Person generally new to Forum who touts a scammer

SA

Special Assessment



SA Week

South African Timeshare



SFX

"San Francisco Exchange" , an exchange company.



SIL

Sister in Law



SO

Significant Other



SVO

Starwood Vacation Owner - Someone who knows a Starwood Timeshare



SVN

Starwood Vacation Network - the exchange system for Starwood owners



TPI

Trading Places International - an independent exchange company



TPU

Trading Power Unit - an arbitrary value assigned to Exchange Weeks within RCI



Trade Power

A measure of desirability of a timeshare week for use in exchanging. Based on location, time of year and resort quality.



TTYL

Talk to You Later



TUG

"Timeshare Users Group"



T/S

Timeshare or ownership interval.

Up front money

Hard earned dollars scammer rips you for

VC

Vacation Counselor - a phone rep at one of the exchange companies



VEP score:

"Vacation Exchange Profile". An RCI resort rating score (company confidential).

VOIP

Phone system allowing scammers to hide their location



Wastegate


Slang for Westgate


WB

Welcome Back



WK

Week



WTG

Way to Go



WKORV

Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas



WM

Worldmark


WWW


Wyndham World Wide who owns, Wyndham, WorldMark, Shell, RCI, EH and others



WVO


Wyndham Vacation Operation


YMMV

Your Mileage May Vary


YW

Your Welcome

A compilation

 

[csxjohn]

TY Paco.:rofl:

 

[Pietin]

Ok, I read this all in one sitting and got a headache.

 

[Rent_Share]

Lost in confusion despite my PhD,
Paul S.

PhD - Post hole Digger, Piled Higher, Deeper

Seriously Bookmark this link

http://www.tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare_glossary.htm

 

[MuranoJo]

Have seen DS used as both dear spouse & dear son.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Have seen DS used as both dear spouse & dear son.

I always thought it was 'deceased spouse' i thought this forum was full of hot older single women!

 

[pacodemountainside]

Not a carefully researched thesis, but compilation of posts here and there.

Will add clarifications.

 

[pschrodt]

Lists of Acronyms

Thanks much Paco and David for the guides on acronyms. I'm sure you have helped others as well as myself. Love you tuggers -- Paul S.