• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 31 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 31st anniversary: Happy 31st Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $24,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $24 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    Tens of thousands of subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Starwood Sells $125 Million in Timeshare loans to a private party

OK, OK I’m not trying to make this personal, I’m just trying to figure out if Starwood (a cash strapped corporation desperate for money, not unlike a heroin addict) would take more money than is needed from us SVO owners (captive cash cows not unlike an unguarded mother’s purse left on the kitchen counter) to make its numbers look better and keep their jobs.

Let’s try looking at this situation from a purely math perspective.

From the available data it appears that Starwood hotels needs to bring in about $100 million/quarter more than it currently takes in to pay everyone, including Fritz, and keep the lights on. This translates into about $400 million a year.

It also appears that Starwood is pretty good at finding things to sell ($125 million timeshare loans, A W hotel here and there, left over timeshare inventory) to make up about $200 million of that difference. This leaves a shortfall of about $200 million/year.

So how much would our maintenance fees have to go up to make up that shortfall?

Well, last time I checked, there were about 250,000 SVO timeshare owners (give or take). So . . . . .

$200,000,000 divided by 250,000 owners = $800/year per villa

Now the powers that be at SVO would have a hard time implementing a blanket across the board $800/year maintenance fee increase. But if it cut costs to maintain our properties and pocketed the difference, and it cut the cost of operating its hotels too, then the maintenance fee increase needed to balance the hotel books may just appear “reasonable” enough to timeshare owners.

Now, Fritz has reported that SVO has cut its operating costs by 30%, and it has cut its hotel operating costs by 30%. Applying those “savings” to the calculation you get.

$140,000,000 (needed by the hotels to balance the books with a 30% cost savings) divided by 250,000 owners = $560/year per villa needed.

Assuming the average maintenance fee for an SVO property is $1000/year. The 30% savings in reduced overhead costs at SVO translates into $300 in SVO’s pocket.

So, applying that savings to the money needed for the hotels means . . . . $560/year less $300 savings in reducing SVO overhead by cutting services we’re paying for = $260/year increase in maintenance fees. (This amount could be easily spread around the various line items – “management, “ “operating costs,” etc., to hide it even more).

In other words, using my rough estimates, if SVO increases, on average, our maintenance fees by $260/year per villa and cut its hotel and SVO operating costs by 30% (as it claims to have done), it could balance its hotel operating books (and even keep giving away all those hotel rooms and paying Frtiz top dollar like its currently doing).

The only problem is that our “maintenance fees” would no longer be (if they ever actually were) rationally related to the actual costs associated with maintaining our properties. We would be paying, on average, $1260/year per villa, but SVO would be spending only about $700/year per villa (including its already over-inflated “management fee” and other mark-ups and profits) to actually maintain our properties.

Sooooo, these rough calculations suggest that Starwood is configuring itself to take about $140,000,000 out of our collective “maintenance fee” purse on the counter, in exchange for a big ol’ pile of nothin’, except the privilege of us continuing to use the Starwood brand names (Sheraton, Westin, Vistana) on our timeshares because the corresponding hotel chains stay in business with the help of our forced “donations.”

Does anyone have any better data or analysis of this situation? If not, I anticipate that our 2010 maintenance fees will increase, on average, about $260/villa, but the maintenance and service quality of our villas will decrease, on average, about 30% under SVO’s continued "care."

As for “why” I’m reporting this information here on TUG, I figure owners and potential owners of SVO properties would be interested to know where their money goes, or would go if they bought an SVO property. That way they can make informed decisions as to whether to buy or sell an SVO property separate from the smoke and mirrors information provided by SVO and even some resales agents.

-nodge
my website

Whew!

Nodge, this took a left turn somewhere.

This thread was about the sale of $125mm in timeshare notes.

Now it's smoke and mirrors by "some resales agents".

Give it a break.
 
OK, OK I’m not trying to make this personal, I’m just trying to figure out if Starwood (a cash strapped corporation desperate for money, not unlike a heroin addict) would take more money than is needed from us SVO owners (captive cash cows not unlike an unguarded mother’s purse left on the kitchen counter) to make its numbers look better and keep their jobs.

Nodge, good luck on your quest. I don't think the answers lie in financial articles/press releases.
 
Nodge, good luck on your quest. I don't think the answers lie in financial articles/press releases.

Funny thing is if Starwood were stealing from our collective purse on the counter, it probably wouldn’t go out of its way to tell anyone about it. In fact, it would probably just maintain a code of stoic silence about EVERYTHING it did, thereby preventing an employee from inadvertently spilling the beans. Hmmmm.

Fortunately, I’ve learned two things from my lifetime of watching cop shows on TV. First, the “jump the shark” moments for these shows usually involve the main character showing his bare butt in a highly-hyped episode to drum up ratings (eg. Dennis Franz/NYPD Blue – sheesh); and 2) criminals and other folks who do wrong always leave ever so small clues, that at first appear irrelevant, but over the course of the next hour, less commercials, grow and build into an iron-clad case.

Let’s review the evidence collected against Starwood so far . . . .

!) The above-noted articles report that Starwood was able to report a profit to its shareholders last quarter, but only after taking advantage of a massive tax break AND selling $125 million in timeshare loans. Of course I may be reading that article wrong, but it appears at least me that but for those two one-time transactions, Starwood hotels would have been in the red last quarter to the tune of over $100 million.

2) The CEO of Starwood has said on record that Starwood “continue to pull cash out of [its timeshare] business."

3) In preparation of reporting the 3Q results later this month, Starwood’s $2 million/month man has stated in this report that “[w]e have an enormous amount of assets we can sell at the right time for a great price to generate cash." He also stated that Starwood is "dialing down" its vacation-ownership business.

4) The HOB of WKORV, the group that enters into contracts with SVO on behalf of WKORV is comprised of 5 members, a controlling majority of whom are top level Starwood employees living and working in Orlando. All evidence to date suggests that every other HOB for every other SVO resort has a similar controlling majority of Starwood employees thereby rendering actual owner input and involvement irrelevant.

5) The recent MASSIVE “special assessments” at Vistana Resort were all approved by the HOB’s of each phase without any vote or prior notice to the owners. Moreover, there was no disclosure to owners as to how the bidding process for this work was conducted or how the contractors were selected. They only thing Owners were told is that these costs of refurbishment, (a large project presumably with large economies of scale and in the mainland US with a Home Depot just down the street) would be about $ 83/square foot. For comparison purposes, the refurbishments at WSJ (a relatively small project on a remote island) were only about $55/square foot.

The amount of these VR special assessments are so disproportionately above the actual costs incurred, one of us Tuggers has even speculated that the excess proceeds collected were used to buy someone a yacht.

6) A simple math exercise (see thread No. 40 above) indicates that if Starwood tags us owners $250-$300/villa more than it actually costs to run our resorts (in addition to us paying the already over inflated Starwood “management” fees), it can accumulate hundreds of millions of dollars to throw anywhere it wants, including keeping its hotel business’ lights on.

So, putting on my cop show lawyer tweed jacket, I ask, are we ever going to find a smoking gun that PROVES Starwood controlled HOB’s have overstated operating costs to benefit Starwood corporate at us owners’ expense? Probably not (unless one of the recently laid off Starwood employees comes forward with it).

But this circumstantial evidence reveals that Starwood certainly has the MOTIVE, ACCESS, and OPPORTUNITY to pull it off. It really comes down to a matter of trust, and to date, Starwood has done absolutely nothing to earn that from us.

-nodge
my website
 
Last edited:
Nodge, the hits keep coming. This link provides more detail.

$800 gets you a discussion of their [Starwood] key business strategies. Section 8.3 must be juicy.

Enough google for me...those guys are good over there.
 
Last edited:
Starwood's 3Q 2009 Earnings Call

Fritz didn’t even mention SVO in his 3Q earnings conference call yesterday. Here is a transcript of the call. He delegated the SVO dirty work to Vasant Prabhu, Starwood’s CFO.

Below are a few of the relevant quotes about SVO from Vasant:

“In our vacation ownership business . . . [w]e generated significant cash this year from securitization and operations and this is our intent to do the same next year.” Capital deployed will be the minimum necessary to finish projects that are in Sello[Sales?].” “Cash flow from Vacation Ownership will largely fund Ball[sic] Harbor in 2010.”


On other item on the Vacation Ownership front, as we did in the fourth quarter last year, we will be undertaking a full review of all Vacation Ownership projects to determine if there are any changes we want to make. We made[may?] decide after this review to abundant[abandon?] specific project[s?] as we did last year, the two projects [actually three Aruba, Los Cabos, and Maui III?] or to stop development on future phases on other projects or reset pricing in some locations. These decisions may result in asset write-offs as well as potential impairment of the good well[will?] associated with the Vacation Ownership business. We will complete this review and take the required actions in the fourth quarter of this year.”


Transcript Source: www.seekingalpha.com Vasant's full transcript starts here.

Vasant has given us two more clues into Starwood's intentions and actions towards us owners.

-nodge
 
Another Clue

Funny thing is if Starwood were stealing from our collective purse on the counter, it probably wouldn’t go out of its way to tell anyone about it. In fact, it would probably just maintain a code of stoic silence about EVERYTHING it did, thereby preventing an employee from inadvertently spilling the beans. Hmmmm.

Fortunately, I’ve learned two things from my lifetime of watching cop shows on TV. First, the “jump the shark” moments for these shows usually involve the main character showing his bare butt in a highly-hyped episode to drum up ratings (eg. Dennis Franz/NYPD Blue – sheesh); and 2) criminals and other folks who do wrong always leave ever so small clues, that at first appear irrelevant, but over the course of the next hour, less commercials, grow and build into an iron-clad case.

Let’s review the evidence collected against Starwood so far . . . .

Hey there fellow Gumshoes!

Here is another clue. This one is from the transcript of Starwood's Q1 2010 earnings call (Courtesy of www.SeekingAlpha.com).


Operator: And the next question comes from Smedes Rose from Keefe, Bruyette.

Unidentified Analyst: I'm just wondering what caused the joint venture debt to decline $124 million sequentially. And then also do you have a sense of what the proceeds would be from a [sic], I think you'd expected to do a timeshare securitization later in the year?

[Vice Chairman, Executive Vice President, and CFO of Starwood] Visant Prabhu: The timeshare securitization I believe we said would be somewhere in the $100 million range. It's not a large one. We'll have to see how big it is depending on how much receivable are accumulated through the year. The reduction in joint venture debt, we'd have to get back to you on that. I can't think of something off the top of my head that would explain that.

[CEO, President and Director of Starwood] Frits van Paasschen: I can give you a ring back afterwards. It did reduce by about $125 million. So I'll call you back.




Hmmm. Starwood execs ramble on and on during that call here about beating expectations by $30 million, but can't quite recall where $125 million came from?

I bet if we put our heads together, we could figure out where Starwood found that extra $125 million laying around . . . .. But, in true cop show fashion, I think we should first send our lovely, young, blonde, former model, designer clothes wearing, Harvard law grad, assistant DA up to the south Bronx by herself on the A train at night to interview a random prostitute and that prostitute's pimp just to make sure they don’t know anything about what went down.

-nodge
My Website
My Other Website
 
Last edited:
Top