Asking the Taboo Question: Is America Overreacting to Coronavirus?

[DannyTS]

There have been reports of false negatives, so I would not be quick to latch onto the 90% negative. So many different tests out there, and I don't know what my state is using. But still less than 20k tested.

there has been no study that I know to prove that

 

[DannyTS]

"Governments across Europe have begun preparations to ease the lockdowns imposed across much of the continent to contain the coronavirus pandemic, even if restrictions that have paralysed the economy are expected to remain in force for several more weeks. France, Spain, Belgium and Finland are among many countries that have set up expert committees to examine a gradual easing of stay-at-home orders for some businesses and schools while avoiding a second wave of infections that could overwhelm health services.

France, Spain, Belgium and Finland are among many countries that have set up expert committees to examine a gradual easing of stay-at-home orders for some businesses and schools while avoiding a second wave of infections that could overwhelm health services."

Europe prepares to ease coronavirus lockdowns

Countries including France and Spain plan their exit strategies while seeking to avoid a second wave of infections

www.ft.com

 

[x3 skier]

Since everyone can find an article, blog, paper, video or other set of words to support their view, whatever it is, I’ve decided not to continue to participate in this thread. For the past few days, the same various opinions are repeated over and over so there’s really nothing new for me to digest. All viewpoints and information were informative and thanks to all who have contributed.

I’ll just continue in the “Geezer Holding Cell” (my house) until I obtain a full release from our Governor although I can “self parole” anytime I really need to get out.

Stay Safe.

Cheers

 

[geist1223]

I wonder how the Dutch Experiment will turn out?

 

[DannyTS]

I wonder how the Dutch Experiment will turn out?

"A further 253 people have been admitted to hospital overnight, a sharp drop on Saturday’s figure, although there may be a time lag, the RIVM said. The number of positive tests rose to 17,851 (+1,224). The number of hospital admissions has been declining for several days now, a fact confirmed by research carried out by Stanford University in the US."

Read more at DutchNews.nl:

Dutch corona hospital admissions decline, death toll rise by 115 - DutchNews.nl

The official death toll from coronavirus in the Netherlands climbed by 115 on Sunday, according to the daily update from public health agency RIVM. This takes the official death toll to 1,766, although the true figure is likely to be higher. Three people under the age of 50 have now died...

www.dutchnews.nl

 

[TravelTime]

Here’s an article about PTSD in ICU survivors who have been on ventilators. The article is a bit old but this shows it is not a new phenomenon. If you google the topic, you will see many articles. It seems like a double whammy. Not only do you have the physical trauma but then you get the psychological trauma. So sad.

PTSD Symptoms Common Among ICU Survivors - 02/26/2013

One in three people who survived stays in an intensive care unit (ICU) and required use of a mechanical ventilator showed substantial post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) symptoms that lasted for up to two years, according to a new Johns Hopkins study of patients with acute lung injury.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

 

[JanT]

TravelTime,

Back in 2011 my daughter contracted H1N1 and came within hours of dying. She was placed into a medically induced coma and on a ventilator. She was unaware of being placed on the ventilator as they did keep her in the coma but after she recovered she told me that while she was in ICU and in the coma, she could hear people talking, she knew when the doctors made incisions in her chest to release the pressure that was building up because the ventilator blew a hole in one of her lungs, etc. So yes, she did have some recognize of things. Even as I write this I feel the horror I felt during that time, so afraid I was going to lose her. I thank God every day for saving her, for the millions of prayers that were said for her, including from my TUGGERs here.

I heard they have really bad dreams. I do not doubt that they can remember some things. The mind is a mysterious thing. There is a lot we do not know.

 

[Big Matt]

I heard they have really bad dreams. I do not doubt that they can remember some things. The mind is a mysterious thing. There is a lot we do not know.

My best friend was on a ventilator for about a week due to complications from a heart attack. His lungs were in bad shape (smoker) and they started to fill with fluid. When he came out of the coma, he was partially in and out of reality. He had wild dreams during his time on the ventilator and believed they were true. The dreams involved some of his friends dying in an unauthorized dirt race track event, he thought that his brother started a company to lay fiber optic cable (his brother isn't in this business), and he was certain of other events that never happened. He laughs it all off now, but it really messed him up for a while. I can imagine PTSD for some without question.

 

[bluehende]

My best friend was on a ventilator for about a week due to complications from a heart attack. His lungs were in bad shape (smoker) and they started to fill with fluid. When he came out of the coma, he was partially in and out of reality. He had wild dreams during his time on the ventilator and believed they were true. The dreams involved some of his friends dying in an unauthorized dirt race track event, he thought that his brother started a company to lay fiber optic cable (his brother isn't in this business), and he was certain of other events that never happened. He laughs it all off now, but it really messed him up for a while. I can imagine PTSD for some without question.

My mother was on one for about a week. She told us of the horrifying nightmares. After she was off she would wake up screaming with the same nightmares. They slowly became more infrequent until she died 15 yrs later but never completely went away.

 

[DannyTS]

we commented about this last week.
"Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as ‘COVID-19’ deaths, regardless of cause"

Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause | The Union Journal

Dr Deborah Birx, the reaction planner for the White House coronavirus job pressure, stated the government government is remaining to count the believed COVID-19 deaths, regardless of various other cou

theunionjournal.com

 

[Karen G]

we commented about this last week.
"Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as ‘COVID-19’ deaths, regardless of cause"

Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause | The Union Journal

Dr Deborah Birx, the reaction planner for the White House coronavirus job pressure, stated the government government is remaining to count the believed COVID-19 deaths, regardless of various other cou

theunionjournal.com

The article is from a questionable source and sounds like whoever wrote it does not have English as their first language. Here's
what I found out about The Union Journal: Founded in 2019, The Union Journal is an imposter news and opinion website.

 

[bluehende]

we commented about this last week.
"Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as ‘COVID-19’ deaths, regardless of cause"

Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause | The Union Journal

Dr Deborah Birx, the reaction planner for the White House coronavirus job pressure, stated the government government is remaining to count the believed COVID-19 deaths, regardless of various other cou

theunionjournal.com

from your article

“Then you will include in those numbers some people who did have a pre-existing condition that would have caused death anyway, but that’s probably a small number,” Baden stated.

And here from a more reliable source.

Official Counts Understate the U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll (Published 2020)

Inconsistent protocols, limited resources and a patchwork of decision making have led to an undercounting of people with the coronavirus who have died, health experts say.

www.nytimes.com

 

[DannyTS]

The article is from a questionable source and sounds like whoever wrote it does not have English as their first language. Here's
what I found out about The Union Journal: Founded in 2019, The Union Journal is an imposter news and opinion website.

so that means it is not true, right

two more:

Feds classifying all coronavirus patient deaths as ‘COVID-19’ deaths, regardless of cause

The federal government is classifying the deaths of patients infected with the coronavirus as COVID-19 deaths, regardless of any underlying health issues that could have contributed to the loss of …

nypost.com

Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause

The federal government is classifying the deaths of patients infected with the coronavirus as COVID-19 deaths, regardless of any underlying health issues that could have contributed to the loss of someone's life.

www.foxnews.com

 

[DannyTS]

The article is from a questionable source and sounds like whoever wrote it does not have English as their first language. Here's
what I found out about The Union Journal: Founded in 2019, The Union Journal is an imposter news and opinion website.

or maybe this

Speaker 24: (01:37:58)
This one’s for Dr. Fauci or Dr. Birx. Can you talk about your concerns about deaths being misreported by coronavirus because of either the testing standards or how they’re characterized.

Dr. Birx: (01:38:13)
So I think in this country we’ve taken a very liberal approach to mortality and I think the reporting here has been pretty straightforward over the last five to six weeks. Prior to that when there wasn’t testing in January and February, that’s a very different situation and unknown. There are other countries that if you had a preexisting condition and let’s say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem, some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death. Right now we’re still recording it and the great thing about having forms that come in and a form that has the ability to mark it as COVID-19 infection, the intent is right now that if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.

Donald Trump Coronavirus Task Force Briefing April 7 | Rev Blog

Donald Trump and the Coronavirus Task Force held their daily press conference on April 7. Trump mentioned withholding WHO funding. Full transcript here.

www.rev.com

 

[Karen G]

so that means it is not true, right

No, it means that everything you find on the internet may or may not be true. Consider the source & do your own due diligence, which it looks like you did with your other sources.

I don’t really see that this particular topic of how the deaths are counted is such a big deal. All deaths are tragic for the families and loved ones no matter the cause. Even if someone had an underlying health condition, contracting the virus certainly contributed to their death so I don’t see the controversy.

 

[DannyTS]

No, it means that everything you find on the internet may or may not be true. Consider the source & do your own due diligence, which it looks like you did with your other sources.

I don’t really see that this particular topic of how the deaths are counted is such a big deal. All deaths are tragic for the families and loved ones no matter the cause. Even if someone had an underlying health condition, contracting the virus certainly contributed to their death so I don’t see the controversy.

It is related to the topic of this post, the number is death is important because it affects policy decisions. One way you react if there are 2 million deaths, completely different if you have 80k but the number includes a lot of people who may have actually died from other causes. It is very early and we need more data but I am just surprised this was not picked up at all by 99% of the media. Remember, the day before, they were all running with the news that the number of deaths may be understated.

 

[bluehende]

It is related to the topic of this post, the number is death is important because it affects policy decisions. One way you react if there are 2 million deaths, completely different if you have 80k but the number includes a lot of people who may have actually died from other causes. It is very early and we need more data but I am just surprised this was not picked up at all by 99% of the media. Remember, the day before, they were all running with the news that the number of deaths may be understated.

I will repeat from the article YOU posted.

“Then you will include in those numbers some people who did have a pre-existing condition that would have caused death anyway, but that’s probably a small number,” Baden stated.

Nowhere in that article does it say it is a major problem. Yes some will be counted that should not be and some will not be counted that should be. There is no reason other than wanting it to be true that says there is any major over reporting of deaths. Covid19 did not even have a medical code until Mar 16.

 

[DannyTS]

I will repeat from the article YOU posted.

“Then you will include in those numbers some people who did have a pre-existing condition that would have caused death anyway, but that’s probably a small number,” Baden stated.

Nowhere in that article does it say it is a major problem. Yes some will be counted that should not be and some will not be counted that should be. There is no reason other than wanting it to be true that says there is any major over reporting of deaths. Covid19 did not even have a medical code until Mar 16.

The problem with what you say is that nobody ( including Dr Baden who is a Fox news contributor and did not have access to the underlying data) can state that the number of those cases is small or large. I am not trying to say he is not a capable doctor but you really need a team of smart Google people to dig into that data, it is not a statement you can make without doing a lot of work.

It is indeed very interesting that the total number of deaths in in USA (not just Corona) does not appear to be on the rise and it actually went down from what I understand. There may be less car accidents but we will have to see how the number of deaths caused just by illnesses during the last couple of weeks compare to normal times.

 

[pedro47]

Figures lie and so do the people who publish or broadcast them. IMO.

 

[Monykalyn]

on the vent issue:

With ventilators running out, doctors say the machines are overused for Covid-19

Critical care physicians are questioning the wide use of ventilators for #Covid19, saying that a large number of patients could instead be treated with less intensive respiratory support.

www.statnews.com

 

[davidvel]

It is indeed very interesting that the total number of deaths in in USA (not just Corona) does not appear to be on the rise and it actually went down from what I understand. There may be less car accidents but we will have to see how the number of deaths caused just by illnesses during the last couple of weeks compare to normal times.

This is precisely the question I have been asking myself, and searching for. That being, how many more additional (marginal) deaths are there due to COVID-19 vs. prior to COVID-19. For example, how many people actually died because of COVID-19 (generally due to pulmonary, cardio, or septic issues) during a relative time period, that would not have died even had they not caught COVID-19, due to colds, flu, falling down, etc.? Not sure we'll ever know this precisely, as you note, many people are not dying (in car accidents etc.), due to the shutdown/lockdown, so the raw stats won't help us.

 

[davidvel]

I don’t really see that this particular topic of how the deaths are counted is such a big deal. All deaths are tragic for the families and loved ones no matter the cause. Even if someone had an underlying health condition, contracting the virus certainly contributed to their death so I don’t see the controversy.

It matters because many people's lives are being utterly devastated by the losing jobs, can't pay rent, racking up bills, contemplating bankruptcy, [millions starving] or committing suicide. (Probably not many in the TUG demographic.)

We've never done anything even remotely like this lockdown/shutdown for causes of deaths that far exceed the current estimates. U.S. "preventable" annual deaths:

• Medical Malpractice - 210,000 to 448,000 ( do we require 2-3 doctors per surgery?)
• Smoking - 435,000 (do we ban all smoking?)
• Being overweight and obesity - 111,900 (do we lockdown overweight people, not let them eat?)
• Alcohol - 85,000 (back to prohibition?)
• Traffic collisions - 43,000 (no more driving?)
• STDs - 20,000 (no more ?)

We could save a lot of people if we just kept this lockdown/shutdown permanent. Of course there are significant consequences, which is why we've not done it is a long time.

Governments have to justify what they've done (and possibly rightfully so if the numbers pan out.) Many people don't sit blindly and question the relativity of what is happening. That's why it all matters.

 

[TravelTime]

It matters because many people's lives are being utterly devastated by the losing jobs, can't pay rent, racking up bills, contemplating bankruptcy, committing suicide. (Probably not many in the TUG demographic.)

We've never done anything even remotely like this lockdown/shutdown for causes of deaths that far exceed the current estimates. U.S. "preventable" annual deaths:

• Medical Malpractice - 210,000 to 448,000 ( do we require 2-3 doctors per surgery?)
• Smoking - 435,000 (do we ban all smoking?)
• Being overweight and obesity - 111,900 (do we lockdown overweight people, not let them eat?)
• Alcohol - 85,000 (back to prohibition?)
• Traffic collisions - 43,000 (no more driving?)
• STDs - 20,000 (no more ?)

We could save a lot of people if we just kept this lockdown/shutdown permanent. Of course there are significant consequences, which is why we've not done it is a long time.

Governments have to justify what they've done (and possibly rightfully so if the numbers pan out.) Many people don't sit blindly and question the relativity of what is happening. That's why it all matters.

I agree. That was the purpose of this thread. It was just to pose the question of whether the lock downs are worth the side effects you mentioned. Many people took it to mean that lives do not matter. That is not what the article or I intended to portray. Frankly, I am still not convinced that we have had the right response but I am open to whatever the data says after the experts are able to analyze the response. Someone commented on this thread that it has already been proven that the lock downs were the right response. I am not yet convinced of that but maybe I will be with more time. I definitely think the fear of Covid-19 is out of proportion with the actual risk. And I think that unrealistic fear has led to the worldwide response.

 

[TravelTime]

Here’s another side effect. People in the USA are starving and the food banks can’t keep up.

————-

‘Never Seen Anything Like It’: Cars Line Up for Miles at Food Banks
Millions are flooding a charitable system that was never intended to handle a nationwide crisis.

‘Never Seen Anything Like It’: Cars Line Up for Miles at Food Banks (Published 2020)

Millions are flooding a charitable system that was never intended to handle a nationwide crisis.

www.nytimes.com

 

[PigsDad]

It matters because many people's lives are being utterly devastated by the losing jobs, can't pay rent, racking up bills, contemplating bankruptcy, committing suicide. (Probably not many in the TUG demographic.)

We've never done anything even remotely like this lockdown/shutdown for causes of deaths that far exceed the current estimates. U.S. "preventable" annual deaths:

• Medical Malpractice - 210,000 to 448,000 ( do we require 2-3 doctors per surgery?)
• Smoking - 435,000 (do we ban all smoking?)
• Being overweight and obesity - 111,900 (do we lockdown overweight people, not let them eat?)
• Alcohol - 85,000 (back to prohibition?)
• Traffic collisions - 43,000 (no more driving?)
• STDs - 20,000 (no more ?)

We could save a lot of people if we just kept this lockdown/shutdown permanent. Of course there are significant consequences, which is why we've not done it is a long time.

Governments have to justify what they've done (and possibly rightfully so if the numbers pan out.) Many people don't sit blindly and question the relativity of what is happening. That's why it all matters.

Bingo! Well stated. It will be interesting, when this is all over, to make a comparison of what most countries did (lockdown / shelter in place) vs. what Sweden is doing. The initial data looks like they are getting similar results with far less damage to their economy.

Kurt