Disney World Hasn’t Felt This Empty in Years

[Mongoose]

Comcast (owner of NBC Universal which owns Universal Studios) is down 36 percent off of it's peak. Seaworld Entertainment Inc. is down 35 percent off of it's peak, Netflix is down 36 percent, Paramount Global is down 83 percent. Disney has definitely dealt itself some self-inflicted wounds (especially around park operations and management the past several years), but this is not a Disney only phenomenon.

My Netflix is up 142% in the past six months since I purchased it. Can't say that for my Disney.

 

[NachoDaddy]

Wherein we compare banning alcohol nationally to banning smoking at a theme park geared towards young children.

No we compare banning something that is legal because a few people may light up outside the designated zones so we ban drinking because a few people may drink outside of the designated zones. BTW, there are a ton of things that could be banned because a few people may abuse them. But it seems you simply don't understand the analogy that you don't ban something for everyone just to punish the few that break the rules. You punish/ban the few that break the rules.

And who in the world ever claimed Disney World to be geared towards "young children"? It was designed for people of all ages.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

analogy that you don't ban something for everyone just to punish the few that break the rules

I'm sure that somewhere deep inside you realize that banning smoking in public places is not meant to punish anyone. Or not?

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

No we compare banning something that is legal because a few people may light up outside the designated zones so we ban drinking because a few people may drink outside of the designated zones. BTW, there are a ton of things that could be banned because a few people may abuse them. But it seems you simply don't understand the analogy that you don't ban something for everyone just to punish the few that break the rules. You punish/ban the few that break the rules.

And who in the world ever claimed Disney World to be geared towards "young children"? It was designed for people of all ages.

Disney is a private company. They can ban whatever they want on their property, regardless of whether it is “legal.” They have made the (correct) determination that the vast majority of their customers would prefer a smoke-free environment at their parks. THey’ve made some poor parks management decisions over the past several years that negatively impacted GSAT, but banning smoking definitely wasn’t one of them. If you can’t go a day without exposing other people’s kids to your cigarette smoke, either get one of those patches, or don’t go.

 

[dioxide45]

either get one of those patches, or don’t go.

Or walk to the front of the park outside the gate where you can smoke.

 

[Mongoose]

Disney is a private company. They can ban whatever they want on their property, regardless of whether it is “legal.” They have made the (correct) determination that the vast majority of their customers would prefer a smoke-free environment at their parks. THey’ve made some poor parks management decisions over the past several years that negatively impacted GSAT, but banning smoking definitely wasn’t one of them. If you can’t go a day without exposing other people’s kids to your cigarette smoke, either get one of those patches, or don’t go.

Not to mention a lot of smokers are inconsiderate and litter their cigarette butts. Makes an annoying mess to have to clean up.

 

[kanerf]

When smoking was allowed in designated areas, the smokers often decided anywhere was designated.

 

[NachoDaddy]

Disney is a private company. They can ban whatever they want on their property, regardless of whether it is “legal.” They have made the (correct) determination that the vast majority of their customers would prefer a smoke-free environment at their parks. THey’ve made some poor parks management decisions over the past several years that negatively impacted GSAT, but banning smoking definitely wasn’t one of them. If you can’t go a day without exposing other people’s kids to your cigarette smoke, either get one of those patches, or don’t go.

I literally stated in my first post in this thread that I no longer go to any Disney park because of the ban. I swear, the lack of education in this country is appalling.

 

[NachoDaddy]

When smoking was allowed in designated areas, the smokers often decided anywhere was designated.

It's interesting that I only noticed vapers smoking where they were not supposed to, not cigarette smokers.

 

[NachoDaddy]

Or walk to the front of the park outside the gate where you can smoke.

Or better yet, go somewhere that allows smokers to smoke in certain areas inside of the park and not spend another penny on Disney. I like that solution the best.

 

[dioxide45]

Or better yet, go somewhere that allows smokers to smoke in certain areas inside of the park and not spend another penny on Disney. I like that solution the best.

And that is certainly your choice. It could also be the choice of non smokers to go somewhere else too that doesn't allow smoking. Disney seems to think the latter was better for business.

 

[ChiefIlliniwek]

Isn't it amazing how the HEADLINE is relative and so everything, if on topic, is in some way relative:
"Maybe they are down from the post Covid rush" which is almost certainly what is in the mind of the headline and half the responders.

"but they were larger or as large as previous July trips we took in 2011 and 2017" but nobody and I mean nobody would actually compare it to 2011. Not only was that 12 yrs ago, but it was coming out of one of the financial disasters created in the last 25 yrs by the casino attitudes and the risk-on / risk-off schizophrenia reinforced by the heavier and heavier hand of govt on the US economy. Bonus points for whomever is first to name the acronym for the financial mess in 2009-2011

2017? Kind of random but prob a good comp for a fundmentally relative topic

GFC…everybody gotta be a homeowner, and government will help out! When will the next, bigger crisis hit?

 

[ChiefIlliniwek]

Laughable. The 2008-2009 crash was caused by an excessive lack of regulatory oversight and accountability of banking and financial institutions and a laissez-faire attitude of government.

I would say that it was caused by the belief that the government should increase home ownership. Others were happy to go along for the ride until the inevitable happened.

 

[PcflEZFlng]

I would say that it was caused by the belief that the government should increase home ownership. Others were happy to go along for the ride until the inevitable happened.

I agree with this. Lending standards were relaxed. Mortgage lenders, junk mortgage bundlers/sellers, derivatives traders, and even the big banks and trading houses, without regulatory oversight to rein them in, were the ones who were only too happy to pile on, until the whole house of cards collapsed. But that's hardly what I would attribute to an ever-heavier hand of government, as asserted by an earlier poster. More like less and less accountability, and government regulatory agencies looking the other way thanks to the lobbyists.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

In any event, the mercury around Disney World hit 100 degrees in several places yesterday (unofficial reports from wunderground, but still). As much as I hate to agree with Iger, I have to imagine that is having an impact. I know that my family, at least, has time-shifted our previous summer trips because that’s just too hot. We’ll never again go in July or August.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

I would say that it was caused by the belief that the government should increase home ownership. Others were happy to go along for the ride until the inevitable happened.

Chief has it, but of course the frosting on top is that the overall financial markets know how to play terrible govt ideas like a fiddle. Chief's point is being repeated right now. Look at the new mandate (not sure if it has been implemented yet) by the current admin to FORCE mortgage lenders to charge their lowest-risk customers more and charge the highest-risk customers less. This is clearly MORE regulation and it is clearly DUMB regulation.

The same pattern was true leading up to the GFC. And the people who always want "more regulation" (often not even knowing what that means) are undoubtedly cheering on this new mandate. And when it helps feed the next blow-up, they'll again chant for "more regulation", oblivious that "regulation" works both ways and often feeds the blow-up.

btw, anyone who claims the residential mortgage market is "lightly regulated" or "laissez faire" might want to check the facts about how much of that market the GSEs control. GSEs, as in GOVERNMENT-sponsored entities, as in all wrapped-up in regulation and subsidy. Other parts of the big banks could use much more regulation, but the residential mortgage market is over-run with terrible govt intervention.

 

[RookWDW]

We just spent three nights at WDW in mid July staying on our DVC points at the Poly after a week on HHI. We have been to Disney many times and, much to my personal surprise, we really love it there. Even still with all that is changing and with my kids now being 12 and 16. We last week two years ago in August. Two years ago it was a dang mad house and absolutely packed with people. We still enjoyed it as a big part of my pleasure is knowing how to effectively plan and work through the tricks of WDW. This year it was quite noticeable less crowded; but there were still plenty of people. I'd also say that there were far more people waiting in lines than normal so I think that sucked up a lot of people and made the main areas seem less crowded. We did purchase the daily LL+ system, and twice purchased the individual LL; once for a second trip on Tron and once for a second trip on Guardians. I don't like that you have to pay for the LL+ vs the old FP+ system, and I'd say the new LL+ is more complicated to figure out. But, that also allowed us to not wait more then ten minutes on any ride, except once we waited 30 for Guardians (totally worth it though, that ride is awesome).

Pricing is definitely up, but IMO, the bigger issue at WDW is the quality is down. The food quality is down for sure. We ate at Ohana, one of our favorites, and the quality was no where near what it used to be to the point we likely wont go back. There was noticeably less crew members in the common areas keeping the peace and cleaning up, which leads, IMO, to the biggest problem that WDW has. Far too many jackwads being jackwads. I'm sure some of you have seen the videos of people just being unruly, fighting, causing trouble, etc. Disney needs to hire (not layoff) more crew members. BTW .. didn't see anyone smoking cigs; but saw many people smoking vaps which are easier for them to hide.

The only real issue we had is that we hit the one week at Epcot without a festival, and Epcot during F&W or the FG festival is probably our favorite part of WDW. We went with the goal of deciding if we still like WDW and DVC with older kids and to decide if we should sell our DVC points. We had just as much (but different) fun so we are definitely keeping our points and there is a good chance I'll buy into the new Poly if it is part of the existing Poly system.

The movie quality is also down significantly, not just the politics of their movies but the generally quality. Even Marvel admitted that their attention to detail and quality is off and they are trying to refocus. There's an excellent WSJ podcast series about Marvel's rise and it's current troubles if anyone is interested. I don't think Iger is the person who can fix it either. They need new, young blood who really can get Disney back to its roots of being that magically world and the attention to every detail.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I'll buy into the new Poly if it is part of the existing Poly system.

The current consensus seems to be that it’s probably not going to be.

 

[RookWDW]

The current consensus seems to be that it’s probably not going to be.

Really? Based on what?

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Really? Based on what?

Resale restrictions at VDH. They seem to really want to put resale restrictions on all new properties to drive people away from resale and towards direct. If it's the same association as poly1, they can't put resale restrictions on it. This isn't definite, but it's at least more likely than not that's the way it's going at this point.

 

[TheHolleys87]

Really? Based on what?

I agree that resale restrictions would probably be the major driver. However, I also feel that DVD has no reason to give several thousand owners of the original Poly immediate 11 month booking privileges to the new building without contributing anything to the construction costs that would be covered by sales of the new points.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I agree that resale restrictions would probably be the major driver. However, I also feel that DVD has no reason to give several thousand owners of the original Poly immediate 11 month booking privileges to the new building without contributing anything to the construction costs that would be covered by sales of the new points.

Also this.

 

[frank808]

DVC did keep the new Grand Floridian Villa points part of the old association instead of a new one. IMHO probably 50/50 that it will be a old association or new association.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[TheHolleys87]

DVC did keep the new Grand Floridian Villa points part of the old association instead of a new one. IMHO probably 50/50 that it will be a old association or new association.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

My belief is that the new VGF Resort Studios were a quick flip (they didn’t do much more than a soft-goods refurb) that helped Disney with two problems:

1) The GF Resort couldn’t fill all its rooms with cash guests. DVD took the BPK building out of that resort’s operations and maintenance budget and put the costs of operations and maintenance of that building into the hands of the VGF owners.

2) DVD had expected to be selling Reflections during this time period. Canceling that project left a gap in their sales plans, which the addition to VGF filled very neatly.

The new building at Poly, OTOH, is a whole ‘nuther thing. Much more expensive to build than the BPK at GF was to flip, and DVD needs to sell points there to pay for construction. Plus, when a new DVC resort is in active sales, DVD declares just enough of the villas/points to be available for the new owners to book at 11 months, plus a few extra for owners at other resorts to book at 7 months, and the remaining villas can be rented by Disney for cash. As sales progress, they gradually declare more villas into the association, until they sell out.

At VGF, they declared all of the villas at BPK into the VGF condominium association almost immediately, which allowed all the pre-existing VGF owners to book there at 11 months. If they add the new Poly tower to the existing PVB condominium association, how many of those new villas would they have to declare into the association right away, in order to give literally thousands of existing PVB owners immediate 11-month booking privileges there?

I’ll admit there are many reasonable arguments on the other side (adding the new tower to the existing PVB), so until DVD says something, it’s fun to speculate. Something else that’s intriguing is the possibility that new Poly would be a new condominium association but end on the same date that PVB does, instead of having a span of 50 years. Having both condo associations end at the same time would allow DVD to put all the buildings/villas into the same new association and sell those new points.

 

[ShawnH]

Well, I originally jumped into this thread to read some real world insight on park attendance to gauge how things were on the ground so to speak. I’ve spoken to people I know that have been recently and one friend kinda put it to me like this, instead of 80000 people there are 65000 people, so yeah it’s down but it’s still a lot. He also thought that it looked like maybe the other parks were “fuller” prior to 1 pm then one park but after 2 pm the park would start filling up, or around 1 you’d start to see massive amounts of people heading out of the park you were in because they were park hopping.

He also indicated the high heat and humidity were pretty bad, bordering on unbearable. I can say I have vivid memories of working in Florida in the summers 20+ years ago and I for one can say I’m not sure I’d go in the summer, even if it was free.

I can say that my family finally got to go to disneyworld for the first time last September. I’ve been to Disneyland many times but never Disney world. We had a trip planned for 2020 but we all know what happened there. And we ultimately didn’t take any vacations until last year and we made it a big one. I’m not sure I’d take that long of a vacation again, but I also don’t regret going. But it was busy. It was also pretty expensive, especially the rooms for a family the size of ours. Honestly it’s why we bought a timeshare, the amount of money we spent on rooms alone at both Disney and universal that trip dwarfed the amount we spent on admission and food which wernt exactly cheep either.

The older 3 aren’t interested in going again especially if they have to miss school, which they would when I typically would go, so I’m interested in maybe going back with my wife and youngest the end of January or first part of February next year. So I’ll be watching to see what happens with attendance.

Finally my thoughts on the attendance debate. As a Disney share holder I had a lot of issues with how Chapek was running the company. I had several conversations with other shareholders and even several cast members while we were there. I was about to sell my stake when Iger was brought back and have since purchased more shares while the price is down. I think they know they stepped in it pretty bad and are course correcting. I do think prices and politics are a factor, but it’s important to note that universals prices are almost the same as Disneys are now, and they too are suffering a downturn in attendance. I’m guessing that maybe we are normalizing a bit from pent up travel demand as well as a mix of boycotting Disney, boycotting the state, heat/humidity, unreliable flights, and overall increases in travel prices.

I will say that I still enjoy Disneys parks, and product, but feel the company needs to focus on its core values and that is quality family entertainment. I think the company is aware it needs to make changes and make them quickly, however I do think that while Disney is deserving of some criticism some of it is also quite unfair. I certainly hope the company does better and I absolutely hope it doesn’t fail as there are a lot of people that would be hurt if it did.