HRC vs HPC resale purchase

[spec1]

I'm shopping around for HRC (deeded weeks) or HPC (portfolio points, *not* platinum) resale opportunities, and I'd like to understand better the pros and cons of each one. The conventional wisdom on these boards seems to be that a deeded HRC week is better than HPC. However, I'm not likely to use any one deeded week, and will instead convert it to points in any case. I'm looking at HRC resales up to a $2-3k price point, so even in this case, not counting on any future resale value.

Here are my questions:
1. Am I right in thinking that HPC may be better for stays under a week? The HPC point chart gives daily point values. If I buy HRC or HPC, most likely I'd like to do several shorter stays (mid-week 3-4 day stays) at Wild Oak Ranch, San Antonio and maybe some of the Colorado resorts that they have.
2. The current MF for HPC seems to be about $1.4 per point. Some HRC listings seem to show lower MF, but maybe that's because they are from 2023?
3. Most of the documentation that I see for HRC and HPC has exceptions for "non-authorized resale owners", in that they are treated as the lowest tier. Are there any particularly bad provisions for "non-authorized resale owners" in either HRC or HPC that I should be aware of? For example, higher fees, etc. I know one "benefit" that is lost is exchange to WoH, but that's very bad value anyway (even the HPC sales rep iterated that!).
4. I know HRC owners get a discount when booking one of the resorts through hyatt.com (using the HRCOD code). Does this also apply to HPC owners?

Thanks for help! I'm sure some of this has been discussed before, but things seem to change a lot from year to year, so I'd like to get the most recent opinion of the TUG hive mind.

 

[Kal]

If you purchase a HRC week on resale, it is basically the same as those weeks purchased from Hyatt, except WoH. You would be advised to buy a 2200 point resale week for the best price available. That could maybe be $7K or $3.18 per point. Later on you could resell that week and probably get all your capital back. If you buy 2200 HPC points, it would be north of $45K and no ability to resell those points. That's easy arithmetic.

 

[spec1]

If you purchase a HRC week on resale, it is basically the same as those weeks purchased from Hyatt, except WoH. You would be advised to buy a 2200 point resale week for the best price available. That could maybe be $7K or $3.18 per point. Later on you could resell that week and probably get all your capital back. If you buy 2200 HPC points, it would be north of $45K and no ability to resell those points. That's easy arithmetic.

I've seen HPC points offered on resale for much lower prices (there are couple of listings on Redweek for 1000 HPC points, for $1,500-$2,300). However, I don't know if ROFR would be exercised for such sales.

On the other hand, you are right that an HRC week will likely retain resale value because it is real estate with intrinsic value.

 

[ScoopKona]

I've seen HPC points offered on resale for much lower prices (there are couple of listings on Redweek for 1000 HPC points, for $1,500-$2,300). However, I don't know if ROFR would be exercised for such sales.

On the other hand, you are right that an HRC week will likely retain resale value because it is real estate with intrinsic value.

I put portfolio points in the same basic category as herpes.

If you buy a resale week, you own something. If they change the system more than they already have -- you still own that something. Ideally, you own something you don't mind using. (I don't.) But at least you have something tangible. Buy it at an attractive price and you can use the week for many years. And sell it for roughly the same as what you paid for it. It's not an investment. But it's better than hotel rooms.

 

[Kal]

I've seen HPC points offered on resale for much lower prices (there are couple of listings on Redweek for 1000 HPC points, for $1,500-$2,300). However, I don't know if ROFR would be exercised for such sales.

On the other hand, you are right that an HRC week will likely retain resale value because it is real estate with intrinsic value.

That $1,500-$2,300 price for HPC points tells you something...$1.50-$2.50 per point. The owner paid about $20,000 for those points.

 

[spec1]

I put portfolio points in the same basic category as herpes.

If you buy a resale week, you own something. If they change the system more than they already have -- you still own that something. Ideally, you own something you don't mind using. (I don't.) But at least you have something tangible. Buy it at an attractive price and you can use the week for many years. And sell it for roughly the same as what you paid for it. It's not an investment. But it's better than hotel rooms.

If you don't use the week, and say the exchange system is unfavorable, it should still be possible to rent out the week?

That $1,500-$2,300 price for HPC points tells you something...$1.50-$2.50 per point. The owner paid about $20,000 for those points.

No kidding, I have a pending recission on a $24k purchase of 1000 points from the developer. So many lies in that sales pitch, unbelievable...

 

[ScoopKona]

If you don't use the week, and say the exchange system is unfavorable, it should still be possible to rent out the week?

It's never happened. I'd gift a week to a friend or relative before I'd try to rent anything. Since I can drop my points into Interval and they're good for two years, eventually something will come up.

If you want rentals, buy a house or a professional building. Timeshares aren't an investment. Sure, there are owners who rent their week -- but it's a lot of hassle for very little return. It's like renting out your car. You can -- but why?

 

[mjm1]

If you don't use the week, and say the exchange system is unfavorable, it should still be possible to rent out the week?

We have rented our unit, or part of it (1BR side) successfully. When we rented the 1BR side we used the remaining points for personal use. It worked very well, so it does happen. That said, we prefer to use our unit or associated points as that’s the best value and vacation experience for us.

 

[ivywag]

That $1,500-$2,300 price for HPC points tells you something...$1.50-$2.50 per point. The owner paid about $20,000 for those points.

There are 2 listings for HPC points on Ebay right now for less than $35 each. That’s the real value. I think that one is 1100 points and the other is 1500. Also, don’t forget that there are restrictions on using HPC resale points. HPC is not a good deal.

 

[ArizonaSun4Fun]

The advice to pay more for a resale Diamond week (2200 points) is excellent advice! If I could start over, that is absolutely what I would do. Maintenance fees have been rising outrageously fast the last two years, so keep your maintenance fee price per point down as much as possible. I agree with Kal that the Diamond weeks will likely retain the value you pay for it.

If you are buying the week for points and not the property you want to stay at every year, you may want to stay away from Coconut Cove right now. MVW and their partner developer decided to sell all remaining undeveloped property at that location. Maintenance fees have been subsidized to the tune of about 70% by the developer. That will be going away, which leaves this fantastic Hyatt property basically financially unsustainable. Currently a big lawsuit between the relatively independent BOD and MVW. Likely outcome would be some contribution to operating expenses for a few years, but even that is a big question mark at this time.

 

[hcarman]

The advice to pay more for a resale Diamond week (2200 points) is excellent advice! If I could start over, that is absolutely what I would do. Maintenance fees have been rising outrageously fast the last two years, so keep your maintenance fee price per point down as much as possible. I agree with Kal that the Diamond weeks will likely retain the value you pay for it.

If you are buying the week for points and not the property you want to stay at every year, you may want to stay away from Coconut Cove right now. MVW and their partner developer decided to sell all remaining undeveloped property at that location. Maintenance fees have been subsidized to the tune of about 70% by the developer. That will be going away, which leaves this fantastic Hyatt property basically financially unsustainable. Currently a big lawsuit between the relatively independent BOD and MVW. Likely outcome would be some contribution to operating expenses for a few years, but even that is a big question mark at this time.

Wow - I had not heard this. For years Hyatt was going to build out the rest of this property. We have stayed here and it is really nice. Why would MVW sell off the rest? You would think at the very least they would build it out to put units in the Abound inventory since they only have Marco Island (which is very popular) on the Florida west coast.

 

[spec1]

If you are buying the week for points and not the property you want to stay at every year, you may want to stay away from Coconut Cove right now. MVW and their partner developer decided to sell all remaining undeveloped property at that location. Maintenance fees have been subsidized to the tune of about 70% by the developer. That will be going away, which leaves this fantastic Hyatt property basically financially unsustainable. Currently a big lawsuit between the relatively independent BOD and MVW. Likely outcome would be some contribution to operating expenses for a few years, but even that is a big question mark at this time.

These kinds of things make me hesitant to buy weeks in individual properties. You never know what may happen there. I'm also concerned about any Florida properties due to the high likelihood of destructive hurricanes.

 

[spec1]

There are 2 listings for HPC points on Ebay right now for less than $35 each. That’s the real value. I think that one is 1100 points and the other is 1500. Also, don’t forget that there are restrictions on using HPC resale points. HPC is not a good deal.

FYI, the auctions ended with 1560 points selling for $1,025 and 1100 points selling for $455. However, in both listings the seller paid closing costs, and in the 1100 listing, it also includes 2024 usage with MF paid. So the net price is actually negative, i.e. the seller is paying to get rid of these points.

 

[mjm1]

These kinds of things make me hesitant to buy weeks in individual properties. You never know what may happen there. I'm also concerned about any Florida properties due to the high likelihood of destructive hurricanes.

I agree about the risk of natural occurrences, which is another reason we like Sedona. I guess there is a risk of fires, but that is rare (we hope.) One thing with points is you own a piece of a lot of resorts, including those in Florida which have a higher risk as you noted.

As a buyer and owner one has to decide on what benefits and risks they are willing to take on and make a decision that works best for you.

 

[SteveinHNL]

I'm shopping around for HRC (deeded weeks) or HPC (portfolio points, *not* platinum) resale opportunities, and I'd like to understand better the pros and cons of each one. The conventional wisdom on these boards seems to be that a deeded HRC week is better than HPC. However, I'm not likely to use any one deeded week, and will instead convert it to points in any case. I'm looking at HRC resales up to a $2-3k price point, so even in this case, not counting on any future resale value.

Here are my questions:
1. Am I right in thinking that HPC may be better for stays under a week? The HPC point chart gives daily point values. If I buy HRC or HPC, most likely I'd like to do several shorter stays (mid-week 3-4 day stays) at Wild Oak Ranch, San Antonio and maybe some of the Colorado resorts that they have.
2. The current MF for HPC seems to be about $1.4 per point. Some HRC listings seem to show lower MF, but maybe that's because they are from 2023?
3. Most of the documentation that I see for HRC and HPC has exceptions for "non-authorized resale owners", in that they are treated as the lowest tier. Are there any particularly bad provisions for "non-authorized resale owners" in either HRC or HPC that I should be aware of? For example, higher fees, etc. I know one "benefit" that is lost is exchange to WoH, but that's very bad value anyway (even the HPC sales rep iterated that!).
4. I know HRC owners get a discount when booking one of the resorts through hyatt.com (using the HRCOD code). Does this also apply to HPC owners?

Thanks for help! I'm sure some of this has been discussed before, but things seem to change a lot from year to year, so I'd like to get the most recent opinion of the TUG hive mind.

My diamond weeks at Pinon Pointe give me 2200 points for about $1600/year in MFs, so about 73 cents per point in MFs. That's pretty darned good, imo. If I were to buy a deeded week for points, it would be at PP or Wild Oak. I used to think FL was a good deal for a diamond week but I am now leery of special assessments and hurricanes out there.

 

[SteveinHNL]

I agree that these aren't investments, but renting your week to cover your MFs is definitely a viable plan if you can't use your week or points for some reason. The only good reason to buy a TS is to use it, but there are times when you can't so renting is a decent Plan B.

 

[Mongoose]

If you purchase a HRC week on resale, it is basically the same as those weeks purchased from Hyatt, except WoH. You would be advised to buy a 2200 point resale week for the best price available. That could maybe be $7K or $3.18 per point. Later on you could resell that week and probably get all your capital back. If you buy 2200 HPC points, it would be north of $45K and no ability to resell those points. That's easy arithmetic.

You can also pick up Gold 1880 weeks for about $500. You need to calculate the ROI.

 

[Mongoose]

I'm shopping around for HRC (deeded weeks) or HPC (portfolio points, *not* platinum) resale opportunities, and I'd like to understand better the pros and cons of each one. The conventional wisdom on these boards seems to be that a deeded HRC week is better than HPC. However, I'm not likely to use any one deeded week, and will instead convert it to points in any case. I'm looking at HRC resales up to a $2-3k price point, so even in this case, not counting on any future resale value.

Here are my questions:
1. Am I right in thinking that HPC may be better for stays under a week? The HPC point chart gives daily point values. If I buy HRC or HPC, most likely I'd like to do several shorter stays (mid-week 3-4 day stays) at Wild Oak Ranch, San Antonio and maybe some of the Colorado resorts that they have.
2. The current MF for HPC seems to be about $1.4 per point. Some HRC listings seem to show lower MF, but maybe that's because they are from 2023?
3. Most of the documentation that I see for HRC and HPC has exceptions for "non-authorized resale owners", in that they are treated as the lowest tier. Are there any particularly bad provisions for "non-authorized resale owners" in either HRC or HPC that I should be aware of? For example, higher fees, etc. I know one "benefit" that is lost is exchange to WoH, but that's very bad value anyway (even the HPC sales rep iterated that!).
4. I know HRC owners get a discount when booking one of the resorts through hyatt.com (using the HRCOD code). Does this also apply to HPC owners?

Thanks for help! I'm sure some of this has been discussed before, but things seem to change a lot from year to year, so I'd like to get the most recent opinion of the TUG hive mind.

HPC has many resale limitations and much higher MF/Point costs (about 80% higher). See the attachment. The only HRC resale limitation is on WoH conversion, which is typically a poor use of your MF $. What is it that you think you will be missing with HRC Deeds?

 

[spec1]

HPC has many resale limitations and much higher MF/Point costs (about 80% higher). See the attachment. The only HRC resale limitation is on WoH conversion, which is typically a poor use of your MF $. What is it that you think you will be missing with HRC Deeds?

Somewhere around the forum I saw that Wild Oak Ranch has greater availability in HPC. Also, HPC has the Aspen Mountain Residences which looks very attractive to me. HRC doesn't have the option to trade into this one. Another attractive feature of HPC is that it seems to be easier to book an arbitrary number of days, rather than fixed 2,3,4,7 day blocks. However, apart from that, HRC seems to have other advantages, but it depends on the individual situation.

In my case, focusing on WOR for now, since that's what I'm closest to, a 2-bedroom week in June is 2000 points. I just found out that I get some hotel discounts through my employer, so I can get this for $2,480 (including taxes and other fees). Equivalent HPC points would cost at least $2,800, while deeded Pinon weeks would get these points for $1,460 MF and WOR weeks worth 2000 points would have a $1,800 MF. However, I don't have to stay 7 nights (or may not even be able to). If I stay 6 nights, the cash price becomes $2,030. In HPC, I could also book 6 nights excluding Saturday night, at 200 points each for 1200 points. This would be worth about $1,680 in MF. In HRC I can't book 6 days, so I would have to book a whole week.

Recent eBay sales show that you can get HPC points essentially for less than $1000 with closing costs included. However, high point deeded weeks at Pinon Pointe or WOR would be at least $5-6k, plus another $1000 or so closing/transfer fees. Even if we assume that a deeded week retains same resale value, there is an opportunity cost. Using current 5 or 10 year treasury rates, that's about 4%, so on $5k, that's $200 per year. Therefore, Pinon vs HPC would pretty much be same (assuming 6 day stay using HPC). Similarly, WOR weeks would be pretty much same as cash. There may be divergence in the future due to inflation, but I don't know whether cash rates or MFs increase faster.

In both cases, for me it only makes sense to use weeks or points at a more expensive resort. In HRC case, this would be for example Main Street Station in Breckenridge (only 1300 HRC points for a 2 bedroom in summer vs $2,800 cash for 6 nights). In HPC, this would be Aspen, which is extremely expensive for cash. The issue of course is that most likely all Aspen availability would be snapped up by higher tier HPC members, and the resale owners would be left with nothing. Similarly, I don't know how is the availability for Main Street in HRC.

 

[Mongoose]

Somewhere around the forum I saw that Wild Oak Ranch has greater availability in HPC. Also, HPC has the Aspen Mountain Residences which looks very attractive to me. HRC doesn't have the option to trade into this one. Another attractive feature of HPC is that it seems to be easier to book an arbitrary number of days, rather than fixed 2,3,4,7 day blocks. However, apart from that, HRC seems to have other advantages, but it depends on the individual situation.

In my case, focusing on WOR for now, since that's what I'm closest to, a 2-bedroom week in June is 2000 points. I just found out that I get some hotel discounts through my employer, so I can get this for $2,480 (including taxes and other fees). Equivalent HPC points would cost at least $2,800, while deeded Pinon weeks would get these points for $1,460 MF and WOR weeks worth 2000 points would have a $1,800 MF. However, I don't have to stay 7 nights (or may not even be able to). If I stay 6 nights, the cash price becomes $2,030. In HPC, I could also book 6 nights excluding Saturday night, at 200 points each for 1200 points. This would be worth about $1,680 in MF. In HRC I can't book 6 days, so I would have to book a whole week.

Recent eBay sales show that you can get HPC points essentially for less than $1000 with closing costs included. However, high point deeded weeks at Pinon Pointe or WOR would be at least $5-6k, plus another $1000 or so closing/transfer fees. Even if we assume that a deeded week retains same resale value, there is an opportunity cost. Using current 5 or 10 year treasury rates, that's about 4%, so on $5k, that's $200 per year. Therefore, Pinon vs HPC would pretty much be same (assuming 6 day stay using HPC). Similarly, WOR weeks would be pretty much same as cash. There may be divergence in the future due to inflation, but I don't know whether cash rates or MFs increase faster.

In both cases, for me it only makes sense to use weeks or points at a more expensive resort. In HRC case, this would be for example Main Street Station in Breckenridge (only 1300 HRC points for a 2 bedroom in summer vs $2,800 cash for 6 nights). In HPC, this would be Aspen, which is extremely expensive for cash. The issue of course is that most likely all Aspen availability would be snapped up by higher tier HPC members, and the resale owners would be left with nothing. Similarly, I don't know how is the availability for Main Street in HRC

Wild oak has about 2400 unit weeks and makes up a full 30% of all HPC inventory. Three resorts account for 67% of all HPC units. Not good. Legacy HRC is still 70% of the small number of HPC resorts.

HRC can trade into aspen. I can book now through August 31st With 148 options.

HPC resale can’t book 1 night stays until 60 days out. HRC can also book 1 night stays. I just booked 1 night HPC using HRC points 4 months out.

The HPC fees are also 40-80% higher depending on variables.

 

[spec1]

HRC can trade into aspen. I can book now through August 31st With 148 options.

HPC resale can’t book 1 night stays until 60 days out. HRC can also book 1 night stays. I just booked 1 night HPC using HRC points 4 months out.

That's interesting regarding Aspen. Based on some previous threads and also the fact it's no longer even listed on Hyatt website, I assumed that it's not available anymore.

 

[Mongoose]

That's interesting regarding Aspen. Based on some previous threads and also the fact it's no longer even listed on Hyatt website, I assumed that it's not available anymore.

Still available. HPC owns 200+ unit weeks. That didn’t change when they lost the management agreement. HRC can rent them per the inter program use agreement.

 

[Kal]

Somewhere around the forum I saw that Wild Oak Ranch has greater availability in HPC. Also, HPC has the Aspen Mountain Residences which looks very attractive to me. HRC doesn't have the option to trade into this one. Another attractive feature of HPC is that it seems to be easier to book an arbitrary number of days, rather than fixed 2,3,4,7 day blocks. However, apart from that, HRC seems to have other advantages, but it depends on the individual situation.

In my case, focusing on WOR for now, since that's what I'm closest to, a 2-bedroom week in June is 2000 points. I just found out that I get some hotel discounts through my employer, so I can get this for $2,480 (including taxes and other fees). Equivalent HPC points would cost at least $2,800, while deeded Pinon weeks would get these points for $1,460 MF and WOR weeks worth 2000 points would have a $1,800 MF. However, I don't have to stay 7 nights (or may not even be able to). If I stay 6 nights, the cash price becomes $2,030. In HPC, I could also book 6 nights excluding Saturday night, at 200 points each for 1200 points. This would be worth about $1,680 in MF. In HRC I can't book 6 days, so I would have to book a whole week.

Recent eBay sales show that you can get HPC points essentially for less than $1000 with closing costs included. However, high point deeded weeks at Pinon Pointe or WOR would be at least $5-6k, plus another $1000 or so closing/transfer fees. Even if we assume that a deeded week retains same resale value, there is an opportunity cost. Using current 5 or 10 year treasury rates, that's about 4%, so on $5k, that's $200 per year. Therefore, Pinon vs HPC would pretty much be same (assuming 6 day stay using HPC). Similarly, WOR weeks would be pretty much same as cash. There may be divergence in the future due to inflation, but I don't know whether cash rates or MFs increase faster.

In both cases, for me it only makes sense to use weeks or points at a more expensive resort. In HRC case, this would be for example Main Street Station in Breckenridge (only 1300 HRC points for a 2 bedroom in summer vs $2,800 cash for 6 nights). In HPC, this would be Aspen, which is extremely expensive for cash. The issue of course is that most likely all Aspen availability would be snapped up by higher tier HPC members, and the resale owners would be left with nothing. Similarly, I don't know how is the availability for Main Street in HRC.

I suggest you not micro-manage the bean game. Keep your eye on the end game. With Portfolio points, there is no resale value. The total cost to own 2000 portfolio points is crazy high (with no resale value). Some day you will not maintain your interest in timeshare stays. So with legacy weeks, you just sell, recover your capital cost and move on. Total cost over those years of ownership is a multiple of maintenance fees. Your goal should be to get appropriate annual value from the MF's. The MF's for Portfolio are higher than legacy HVC weeks and run the risk of considerable increases when Hyatt stops subsidizing the Portfolio program.

 

[Mongoose]

I suggest you not micro-manage the bean game. Keep your eye on the end game. With Portfolio points, there is no resale value. The total cost to own 2000 portfolio points is crazy high (with no resale value). Some day you will not maintain your interest in timeshare stays. So with legacy weeks, you just sell, recover your capital cost and move on. Total cost over those years of ownership is a multiple of maintenance fees. Your goal should be to get appropriate annual value from the MF's. The MF's for Portfolio are higher than legacy HVC weeks and run the risk of considerable increases when Hyatt stops subsidizing the Portfolio program.

If HPC resale did not have all the restrictions, I would consider picking up a small amount. With the restrictions, they are less than worthless to me due to the high fees.

 

[Mongoose]

FYI, the auctions ended with 1560 points selling for $1,025 and 1100 points selling for $455. However, in both listings the seller paid closing costs, and in the 1100 listing, it also includes 2024 usage with MF paid. So the net price is actually negative, i.e. the seller is paying to get rid of these points.

Food for thought the MFs on the 1560 you mentioned would be over $2100. You can get an 1880 Gold week at Pinion Pointe for MFs of about $1600 with more access and less restrictions.