Demeure - UE

[ClubsRDead]

Desties you are 100% correct on the UE / Demeure pricing issue. Taking this one step further, however, would be noting that the "club" discounts that Demeure publishes aren't even close to being discounts. Not just to market rates, but to the ACTUAL homes they have listed.

 

[ClubsRDead]

Anyone know anything about the people running Quintess? Thoughts about their offer?

You are either 1) brand new here (well being it's your first post under that name, you are) and haven't read any emails, blogs, etc - in which case welcome aboard, or 2) want to see what we'll say by posting such a broad statement (which would typically imply you work for Quintess and want to get a feel for the current sentiment - and imply that we are stupid and can't see right through it), therefore 3) In that case - their upper mgmt appears, at least through this process to not be trustworthy, capable of doing underhanded deals, taking advantage of situations (not always a bad thing, in this I'm referring to 1600 Broadway) and hiring persons with questionable reputations who have been known to deceive member customers. And the offer? The offer is both non-sustainable and laughable - but someone needs to find out since they keep sending emails out to us and wondering why we're not dashing to sign up. In that case, just refer them back to the start of #3 and tell them the inventory represented for DUO also sucks. Basically, the report could be along the lines of "if they need a bad business model and want to stay in crappy inventory at above market prices, or that isn't ready to be utilized yet - they can just sign up with Demeure."

If I am wrong in either 2 of of the above - so be it. #3 still applies.

 

[UESignature]

UESignature

No tricks here. We don't work for Quintess, maybe just two naive members who work hard and have enjoyed great vacations over the past 4 years. We have tried to keep up with the news but its a full time job.

We understand its the lesser of two evils - we are just trying to evaulate our options so we can make a decision and move on.

 

[Desties]

UESignature, there are two members here -- SciFrog and EOD -- from Quintess. One is on the resignation list and suing the company, but both generally have kind things to say about the company.

My beef with Quintess itself is that two years ago it roughly doubled what members were paying per night. To be fair, ER also instituted a dramatic rate hike for its earliest members that will be implemented over a few years and UE had last year's assessment (which was equivalent to a year of Quintess doubling its dues). In other words, all three of the largest non-equity clubs have pulled the pricing rug from the feet of its members.

Where I think Quintess is going too far is that it forces members to continue paying even after they are on the resignation list. If this was a matter of weeks or months, it wouldn't be a big deal but there have been folks on this resignation list for YEARS. They are allowed to sell those nights to fellow members, but who wants to buy EXTRA nights?

As for DUO, do the math. The DUO dues for at least the Miami Beach and Stowe properties are MORE than it costs to book similar accomadations at those resorts. Quintess itself has great-looking homes, but DUO's properties are well short of the $2 million avg. they are promoting (don't believe me, I can get you the exact same layout as the Carlyle home in South Beach for about $700k).

It's been said that DUO offers a golden opportunity to get MORE back on resignation, but they put up an even sweeter deal for Lusso members last year. In the end, DUO is an iffy product without paying the initial deposit -- so who the heck is going to pay six figures for that cover charge? And if they don't how will UE members get out?

The best thing that can be said about Q is that it outlived UE. It's not a horrendous choice, and at least you won't be risking a six-figure deposit again (for DUO that is, unless you can get a sweetheart deal into Q itself). Still, if you decide to go with DUO or Quintess, try and see if they can add language into your contract that will allow you to be on the resignation list without paying. It's a terrible policy.

 

[ClubsRDead]

No tricks here. We don't work for Quintess, maybe just two naive members who work hard and have enjoyed great vacations over the past 4 years. We have tried to keep up with the news but its a full time job.

We understand its the lesser of two evils - we are just trying to evaulate our options so we can make a decision and move on.

It just seems unlikely to me that there are 2, much less ANY of us who as members of UE - and you say you were for 4 years - dealt with UR / UE in any manner whatsoever, and couldn't have some problem with our head of sales who made numerous misrepresentations now working for Q and trying to take your money - again.

And, frankly - "keeping up with the news" has been less than tedious because there has been none - certainly not from the company, CRG or UCC. Even the mailings from BK Court have been infrequent and outdated, at best.

So it just doesn't add up to me. If you're a member like us and that naive to the situation then all the power to you, God bless and just hand your cash over to Q, Demeure or even join both. But in reality it just doesn't pass the "smell test."

I'm tempted to say "tell SH hello" but I suspect he's aware these posts already exist...

 

[SciFrog]

UESignature, there are two members here -- SciFrog and EOD -- from Quintess. One is on the resignation list and suing the company, but both generally have kind things to say about the company.

My beef with Quintess itself is that two years ago it roughly doubled what members were paying per night. To be fair, ER also instituted a dramatic rate hike for its earliest members that will be implemented over a few years and UE had last year's assessment (which was equivalent to a year of Quintess doubling its dues). In other words, all three of the largest non-equity clubs have pulled the pricing rug from the feet of its members.

Where I think Quintess is going too far is that it forces members to continue paying even after they are on the resignation list. If this was a matter of weeks or months, it wouldn't be a big deal but there have been folks on this resignation list for YEARS. They are allowed to sell those nights to fellow members, but who wants to buy EXTRA nights?

As for DUO, do the math. The DUO dues for at least the Miami Beach and Stowe properties are MORE than it costs to book similar accomadations at those resorts. Quintess itself has great-looking homes, but DUO's properties are well short of the $2 million avg. they are promoting (don't believe me, I can get you the exact same layout as the Carlyle home in South Beach for about $700k).

It's been said that DUO offers a golden opportunity to get MORE back on resignation, but they put up an even sweeter deal for Lusso members last year. In the end, DUO is an iffy product without paying the initial deposit -- so who the heck is going to pay six figures for that cover charge? And if they don't how will UE members get out?

The best thing that can be said about Q is that it outlived UE. It's not a horrendous choice, and at least you won't be risking a six-figure deposit again (for DUO that is, unless you can get a sweetheart deal into Q itself). Still, if you decide to go with DUO or Quintess, try and see if they can add language into your contract that will allow you to be on the resignation list without paying. It's a terrible policy.

DUO first round of destinations isn't that great, but don't forget, these properties are paid without member deposits. Anyone reasonable would ask DUO what their FUTURE destinations would be.

Desties, what do you really want?
Your deposits are gone and likely the dues paid to UE were too low to sustain the model long term. The idea of a DC is that they buy tte home to protect you for future increase of market rates. Well it doesn't really work right now because market rates are so low. It will change one (distant) day.

EOD is suing Q for a very specific and personal problem: Q changed the holiday rotation scheme in a way that benefited the vast majority of members but not EOD as he lost a seconday summer/spring holiday that was very important for him. That change however was a big plus for me as they eliminated the secondary holidays...

 

[Desties]

DUO first round of destinations isn't that great, but don't forget, these properties are paid without member deposits. Anyone reasonable would ask DUO what their FUTURE destinations would be.

The club is already on the record as saying that they are exploring ski properties, and then looking at Hawaii, Orlando, and Tuscany.

Why should that matter, though? The current offer -- as presented -- isn't going to nab more than 100 ex-UE members (if that), so the club won't be adding these properties. DUO's first impression was enough. It didn't impress me. It hasn't impressed you, if you're preaching patience for the second wave of homes that may never come.

Demeure spent $14 million on an 11-property set that blows DUO's 14 properties out of the water and even THAT has been poorly received.

What do I want? Honestly, I was hoping for a hospitality heavy to seize the opportunity and buy UE out of bankruptcy. It didn't happen, obviously. However, the DUO and Demeure offers are WORSE than nothing at all because I -- and I'm sure every other UE member -- can do better booking piecemeal vacations. EE had an impressive presentation and slight discounts, but not enough to sway me and ease my concerns (though I understand why EE and AK can only go so far given their equity models).

I expected too much at the beginning. But now I'm also a realist in what's available outside of the DC space.

 

[willmyclubmakeit]

future

I had also hoped a savior would appear but I'm moving on (at least for now). I booked two ski vacations in the past 24 hours, each using slope-side (1 or both maybe ski-in/out) properties. Average nightly cost for March time period was $400. Both of these properties are nice but I doubt as good as UE and both are smaller (one is 2 bedroom/2 bath and the other is 3 bedroom/3 bath). I also looked at an incredible 5 bedroom, 6 bath place at Steamboat that is ski in/out and much nicer than mountaineer--and it could be had for less than $1000/night for spring break. I found replacement Xmas week homes in the USVI in a nice resort for less than $1,000/night. Given the request to pre-pay for a year, lock in for 2 years, be restricted to their homes, and pay the posted prices on Demeure, I have to move on unfortunately. I still like Q but Duo's homes are of no appeal and I'm not going to float another large deposit in a non-equity club. Maybe AK or EE would have worked but I'm just not willing to write an upfront or even annual check of that amount for the # of nights offered knowing there are always transition challenges when places are already booked by members. I think its time to stop posting and wish people well--until a better solution turns up. too bad our club did not make it. It was fun while it lasted and we have some great memories which are priceless.

 

[SciFrog]

Sounds like the prudent approach. Just keep in mind these market rates won't last forever. And prime locations like Vail have not gone down in price. Actually we are finding higher prices than last year...

 

[ClubsRDead]

and we have some great memories which are priceless.

Yep - besides the photo's, who all can say they have multiple claim forms in a bankruptcy process for doing the same stupid thing more than once? THAT is priceless...

To the point above, these "market rates" don't have to last forever. It's a wonderful time to buy vacation / resort property and provided you buy right, you can carry right, rent right and sell without pressure.

JT should have learned this as well as anyone. He didn't exactly overpay for TH, but he should have paid his debt down and made more frugal business decisions prior to letting that loan balance balloon while the real estate market cratered.

The reason Demeure rates are so ugly is because the values assigned to the houses by CS are. The deal will never work not just because their whole premise is flawed, but because bringing in the UE homes is a mistake. He'd be net cash positive if he'd have just sent me an email and asked me to try it out for $2500. 1200 X $2500 would have been a lot better than where he's going to be. I think the other club trying to get 500 for $5000 has this figured out - $2.5MM of free cash, no inventory, debt or overhead.

 

[UESignature]

Are you talking about Boundless Journey 500 for $5000 each?

 

[Northof49]

The Demeure offer is way over priced as we travelled for under $300.00 US/night per year based on 28 travel days used at Legacy Premier members. Now they want over $700.00/night?? When we joined, PE boasted the average home value was $1M, which dropped to $800K in their later advertising. Those same homes are now closer to $300K to $500K/ea maybe. The math doesn't add up no matter how you look at it. I think even Signature is getting ripped while Elite may be close, not sure. I still think that if there are enough club members left who wanted to start a realistic, equity owned club, it could be done with little or no debt. It would take some good people with business and legal and property knowledge and the new club could pick properties in the best area's for great pricing. In all honesty, this is the only way any of us will ever have a chance of seeing any returns on our lost money is if we buy low in the real estate market now and stick with it and enjoy the investment for 10+ years before we decide to sell out. No one is going to ride in and be the white knight and give anyone any money back, it's gone. We need to stand up, walk away and start fresh and leave CS and the rest of the crooks so the value the membership did add to the bankruptcy deal is gone and CS can take a further bath for not taking us seriously from the start.

 

[TarheelTraveler]

http://www.destinationclubnews.com/News_Deadline_For_Demeure_Transition_Extended.php

"The expedited process has allowed Demeure the ability to defer the deadline for Ultimate Escapes members transitioning to their club by an additional week until November 12, 2010."

Based on this, the drop of the 15% price increase, and recent emails providing additional information, clearly Demeure is having some issues winning the UE membership over. Is it too little too late or are they getting some traction now? In other words, execution of the UE offer may not have been ideal, but is the evolving offer a good one and a sign of a genuine effort to make the members feel like their concerns were taken into account?

 

[ClubsRDead]

Is it too little too late or are they getting some traction now? In other words, execution of the UE offer may not have been ideal, but is the evolving offer a good one and a sign of a genuine effort to make the members feel like their concerns were taken into account?

Wouldn't it be most prudent for members to NOT answer these types of questions in too much detail on public forum?

1. Why would you report your specifif thoughts, as a UE member, to other clubs or an AK member directly?
2. If you say "oh, this is great," Demeure has no incentive to continue to develop what obviously is a broken process, or
3. You say "these are still horrible, no way will I join" and you continue to get solicited by other clubs with their "better" offers.

I think, personally, Demeure needs to step it up and demonstrate how their "model is superior." They have failed to do so thus far. Are they headed that way - maybe.

At the end of the day this is going to be a personal decision for each. Some, like me, won't do business with them - regardless of their rates - just because of their McGrath et al connection and inability to be forthright about it. Quintess - same thing (acquiring UE sales staff who picked my pocket and got paid handsomely to do so).

I'd rather give more $/night elsewhere knowing that someone other than those guys stood to gain financially from being involved.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Is it too little too late or are they getting some traction now? In other words, execution of the UE offer may not have been ideal, but is the evolving offer a good one and a sign of a genuine effort to make the members feel like their concerns were taken into account?

Too little....too late.

The new posing of prices is amazingly messed up - the same properties repeated multiple times for the same dates. I don't know why they didn't proof it before posting it because it doesn't build confidence in their ability to manage (even a price list).

Even with that (minor??) glitch forgiven, the real issue continues to be pricing. Why join Demeure to pay at or above market rates..??? They say "it's the services and the certainty.."

Well, I have found that, with care, one can rent through an agent like the Parker Company (http://www.parkervillas.com/) for Italian villas [many far superior to the DC industry's inventory - even ER's] or Wimco (http://www.wimco.com/) for the Caribbean [with a ditto on quality], with none of the issues that D says to worry about.

Or book direct - Maui, 3 BR penthouse unit same as the Elite UE unit - available on the property web site for as little as $1,095 per night for a one week stay in February (admittedly with "limited housekeeping"---Oh heck, I can live with that...). Available from Demure for $1,650 with a claimed $2,800 "value". By the way - the property offers another 20% off for using an AMEX card.....

And, of course there is the off-discussed VRBO alternative. So, again, why prepay, lose unused funds, etc with Demeure..??

 

[TarheelTraveler]

Hey I was just curious. Feel free to disregard my post. I've put my thoughts/questions on here to be helpful, but if they're not, please disregard. Hoping for the best resolution for UE members.

 

[Kagehitokiri2]

3. You say "these are still horrible, no way will I join" and you continue to get solicited by other clubs with their "better" offers.

are you saying you dont think current DCs can improve? while i might be about that negative, im not sure im there yet. at this point my hope is for the DC model which i describe as "exchange free" rather than the DC industry. i think its unfortunate there isnt something in between rocksure/luxus and AK. also odd EE lonestar hasnt launched.

TarheelTraveler has voiced his agreement re hiring practices. im with you too - dont get it, like many things in DC industry.

would you consider a higher end club again in future if it seemed sound? thats something SciFrog has talked about.

re rentals - http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=871962&postcount=33
DC trials are basically rentals too, certainly great deals.

 

[Northof49]

I think DC's can improve but only as a member owned and operated club. Putting your money and faith into someone else's hands with no disclosure is a disaster that all of us agree we should have known better about. The sweetheart promises at 'the end' when you sell out higher than what you paid in for hooked many. Was it greed or somehing else but all of us gladly, freely and willingly gave cash to strangers to take care of us and treat us like royalty. The talk of 800 members is huge and we wouldn't need many to start a new club debt free if everyone ws willing to live within their means and accept great homes in great locations but maybe a bit limited for the start up. My proposal would be sell shares based on weeks worth of vacationing. If 100 Premier members each put in $60K ($20K per week of vacation) that would raise $6M in capital. This could by 8 fantastic homes at an average of $750,000.00 ea ( none of us stayed in any property close to that value I would guess) which is probably high in some markets so 8 homes is probably low. Base occupancy of 66% per year gives you about 32 weeks or 3 weeks per member (also gives 2 weeks/year for planned maintenance). I don't know the average monthly operating costs but if anyone does, simply take those, plus a local host and divide by 20 days (2/3 occupancy base) and you have the monthly opearting costs. Add a percentage to cover head office, legal and staff expenses plus a bit for a small profit. We were about $300.00/night all in with Premier Leagcy based on 28 days per year so based on this number, that could raise $67,200.00/year per residence. Multiply that by 8 is $537,600.00 so is this enough to carry and cover a club with newer and better properties where new memories can be made and the horrors of the past forgotten?? I would propose other idea's such as the member choses to put their money in the type of location they most prefer. Ski, Beach, City, Golf. The houses are bought to support those area's as the money comes in so members aren't compensating properties they will never use. Signature and Elite could do the same seperate or together but would recommend every club mirrors proprties to reduce expences, I used Premier as that is what I am familiar with and is also the least expensive. I would also let any level book into any other club if there was open space within a 6 month period but at that clubs nightly rate. The last thing is this is the only way any UE member will get any money back in the end is to buy into a low cost property portfolio and riding it out for 5-10+ years and let the value grow. Sadly, no matter what every individual does, none of us are getting anything back from the failed UE experiment.

 

[Kagehitokiri2]

if enough members approached second home destinations, and capsource was open to leasing, maybe there is a potential discussion there.

of course demeure should also be talking lease only...

at $1mm equity level, if enough members approached EE (lonestar) or luxus (talked about starting US club) maybe there is a potential discussion there as well. if there was an EE (lonestar) deal at that level, and theyre brining people into regular EE right now, maybe they could pick up some of the depressed higher value properties as well. and of course their lease/debt targets allow a lot of flexibility.

 

[Kagehitokiri2]

http://docs.bmcgroup.com/ultimateescapes/docs/deb_1-10-bk-12915_404.pdf
some interesting stuff, including property values etc, and 3 blacked out non-CS owned properties...??

more UCC fun times

 

[ClubsRDead]

http://docs.bmcgroup.com/ultimateescapes/docs/deb_1-10-bk-12915_404.pdf
some interesting stuff, including property values etc, and 3 blacked out non-CS owned properties...??

more UCC fun times

Those are more than likely the 3 homes that Rich Keith has mysteriously "removed" from the debtor portfolio and is already renting out to jump start his new little venture - "PE2 - The Return of The Losses."

Let's hope you are right and the UCC gives a damn. More than likely, not...

 

[Desties]

For those out of the Demeure-UE loop, the latest email shows at least some warming up to reality.

Demeure will begin considering annual travel committments below member-specific UE levels after November 12.

The plan appears to be to give those who agree to five years of putting up the same amount of annual dues into the Demeure kitty to have 2-year priority booking and receive the 6 months of travel credits originally promised.

After that, the gate will likely open for those who want to put up less.

I definitely wasn't going to go the first route, but I'll listen to the offer post-Nov. 12. I still think that the nightly rates are too high, so something has to be done there. Adding insult to injury, it will be nearly impossible to consume all of your annual credits in a year (you'll either have credits left over or have to pay the non-club premium on top of rates that are already high).

Really Demeure. The least you can do is offer 10% or 20% of the travel budget to roll over to the following year. Not doing so makes anyone who takes the club up on this offer either stupid or a glutton for punishment.

As for the plan to go in with less, if too many of the perks are gone (advance booking, travel credits) I don't see the incentive. Waiving the $2,500 entry fee (that I doubt few if anyone has actually paid) isn't enough.

Here's another thought to improve the Demeure model: Offer property stays for vacant nights within a month or 3 month period at half of the club rates! It's just common sense. It's what a property owner would do and Demeure can be called many things, but an outlet for travel deals is certainly not it.

 

[Kagehitokiri2]

didnt they specifically mention some kind of last minute thing in their marketing to owners/companies?

more UCC fun times

Let's hope you are right and the UCC gives a damn. More than likely, not...

actually they dropped one of the two law firms, reminiscent of >

what the heck is UCC counsel doing.. (appear withdraw etc)

 

[ClubsRDead]

For those out of the Demeure-UE loop, the latest email shows at least some warming up to reality.

But, is it a better offer? I'm not so sure. At a minimum, it illustrates our lack of interest thus far.

Most of their "answers" are inspecific and incomplete, at best. The math makes no sense. And they are obviously having a hard time accounting for the multiple travel deals that were mushed together from UR, TH and PE. And, the rates still suck.

Two answers stick out - telling how VRBO has non-verified photos when they list some of the same homes, and identical photos. My personal favorite is "Finally we would encourage you to request financial documentation in your consideration of membership with any club. Demeure has been fully vetted by CapSource and our diligence is thorough." Well, have any of us seen their financials? And more importantly, is telling us that we're getting a model built by McGrath that is considered solid by Cap Source helping them any??

Most would think that Cap Source being the lender to Quintess, ER, PE, etc would pretty well "vett" anything to get them out of this mess -- and I doubt Demeure does it. How strong is a CS recommendation? They're the one's that made this ridiculous loan in the first place.

 

[Kagehitokiri2]

that is kind of unintentionally funny theyre referencing CS - theyre high yield, high risk. why would members of a club want risk?

not to mention anything that is nonequity is a winner to CS.