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I hate to ask

DavidnRobin

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I'm getting nervous here as several Tuggers picked #1. I hope my thinking doesn't have a big hole in it.

It may be due to looking at it as a real estate investment from a resale POV. Since the money spent to purchase does not come into play (unless sold) - I would choose to pay less MFs that are stable.

Using hindsight - I certainly would have preferred to pay much less our SVO VOI by waiting (or not buying at all) - but now that we own - I would prefer lower MFs.
 

LisaRex

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Trying to understand here….

Do you have a spreadsheet to track your initial cost with annual MFs and “savings”? Assuming you do, how do you arrive at your “savings” every year?

I'll try to explain. Before we bought in Maui, we'd traveled to Maui twice. The first time we went, in '04, we rented a hotel room at the Renaissance Wailea (RIP) for $325/night + taxes for an OF room. We rarely spend that much on a hotel room, but it was our 15th year wedding anniversary and decided to splurge.

In '06, we traveled with friends and split the cost for a $325/night + $190 one-time cleaning deposit, privately owned 2 bdrm condo that we rented via VRBO. Though the grounds were not as nice as WKORV, the room itself was superior in terms of space, layout, convenience, and lanai. I'm talking granite countertops, beautiful tile, plush beach towels, etc. And the view was awesome. Pool was meh, but they offered free lounge chairs right on the beach. And I have to say it was a great week.

In '07, we decided we'd travel to Maui in '08 and take the kids for the first time. My first consideration was to rent the same villa we'd rented in '06. But when I checked rates, they'd gone up considerably ($425/night). At that time we looked into the possibility of buying a TS, with the understanding that we'd frontload some cash and then have the ability to "rent" our unit in subsequent years at a significant discount, so that our annual vacation dollars would spread farther. After a lot of research, we settled on the Westin.

In crunching the numbers to see whether it made fiscal sense to fork over $50k + $1600 MFs each year, we used the $425 figure as a point of comparison as that is how much it would cost us (and how much we were willing to pay) for a comparable sized unit right up the street from WKORV. At the time, the numbers made sense because our model assumed that MFs would hold steady or increase slightly. Remember, that upfront fee ($50k in my case, up to $100k for others who bought from the developer) was supposed to buy us the right to rent our villa at a steep discount in subsequent years vs. comparable rentals because MFs are supposed to be just that - just the cash needed to run the place.

What has happened instead, is that the MFs have increased to the point where I can now rent the same 2 bdrm unit that I used as a point of comparison for LESS than what I pay in MFs at WKORV. In other words, even if MFs held steady to 2010 figures, our break even point is something ridiculous like 45 years.

Bottom line is that there is very little incentive for buying Starwood TSs anymore, especially the higher end ones because we can't even try to assuage the hurt by trading up like SVV or SBP owners can. They've increased MFs so much that it simply doesn't make sense, even on an emotional level, to pay thousands of dollars for the right to rent at current market rates. Because I could do that, on my own, for free, with no long term commitment.

Hope this helps.
 

DanCali

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I don’t think resale prices go to zero when MFs are at $4k. Why would it? The weeks still have value, specifically $1500 annually ($5500 rental costs minus the $4000 MF).

The $5500 was at $800/night and that's pretty much like a Starwood rate. It helps to think of it that way because it increases the annual "savings" (helps the ownership argument). Realistically, as LisaRex pointed out, compaable accomodations (even WKORV rentals) can be had for much less from private parties. If MFs go to $4000, I don't think resale prices will be far from zero.

Also, I don’t think the increasing MFs is driving down resale prices. Increasing MFs certainly isn’t helping resale pricing but the crummy economy is the primary problem. Do you think that an additional $20 to $30 a month in additional MFs caused the resale value to drop by 50%? I really really really don’t think so.

People don't think of these as monthly expenses. It is $2400 for a week vacation versus $1900 a year ago. $350/night versus $270/night... almost a 30% increase. I don't disagree that the economy also plays a part, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find Marriott Platinum weeks that dropped 70% in resale value in 3-4 years. Starwood excessive drop in resale values is also attributable to excessive MF increases.

Marrott also has fee increases that are sometimes high, but not like Starwood... I don't have the data but how much did resale prices of Maui Ocean Club or Waiohai drop since 2005? Is it comparable to going from $40K to $12K-15K?
 

Fredm

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I'm getting nervous here as several Tuggers picked #1. I hope my thinking doesn't have a big hole in it.

No big hole. I agree with you.

Others assume
- fees will continue to increase as in the past several years.
and
- rental rates will stay at depressed levels.

Neither will happen.

If all who would buy decide to rent instead, owner rental rates would skyrocket.

It's the economy.

Resale prices will not rebound. They never do. But owning will provide better value than renting in the long run.

Looking back is the worst way to view the future.
Just like generals fighting the last war.
 

DanCali

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I'm getting nervous here as several Tuggers picked #1. I hope my thinking doesn't have a big hole in it.

I think the difference is again related to what you think MFs do to resale prices.

I assume that, in a healthy economy, if MFs are stable (e.g. rise at the rate of inflation) resale prices are relatively stable. So in the high upfront cost, low MF scenario it may take you 10 years to recover your initial investment. If resale prices are zero at the end of that period then that's all you did - recover the initial investment in 10 years and you are right that 5 years is better than 10. But in this scenario, resale prices are not zero at the end of that period. You can actually sell the asset after 10 years for a nice amount so financially it can look much better than option 2.

In the low upfront cost, high and increasing MF scenario you maybe recover your money faster but I believe the increasing MFs drive resale values to zero. So you recover your investment and there is no residual value.

Here is a simplistic illustrative example:

Scenario 1: Buy for $40K, save $4k a year, sell for $30K after 10 years... (I assumed some modest depreciation over 10 years due to say demand for newer resorts)

Scenario 2: Buy for $10K, save $2000 a year on average and sell for nothing at the end of 5 years (assuming MFs are at $4K after 5 years, I assumed full depreciation)

To make the two more "apples to apples",look at a 5 year horizon for both:

Scenario 1: Buy for $40K, save $4k a year, sell for $35K after 5 years...

So in scenario 1, you "save" $20K and lose $5K in equity over 5 years, not bad overall...

In scenario 2, you "save" $10K, but lose $10K in equity so you didn't do much

Of course this is all subject to assumprions but this illustrates why most people who responded prefer scenario 1 - it assumes that resale prices are steadier if MFs are steady.

It is not about recovering the investment - it's about where are you better off dollar wise after you account for MFs and equity depreciation.
 

Troopers

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I'll try to explain. Before we bought in Maui, we'd traveled to Maui twice. The first time we went, in '04, we rented a hotel room at the Renaissance Wailea (RIP) for $325/night + taxes for an OF room. We rarely spend that much on a hotel room, but it was our 15th year wedding anniversary and decided to splurge.

In '06, we traveled with friends and split the cost for a $325/night + $190 one-time cleaning deposit, privately owned 2 bdrm condo that we rented via VRBO. Though the grounds were not as nice as WKORV, the room itself was superior in terms of space, layout, convenience, and lanai. I'm talking granite countertops, beautiful tile, plush beach towels, etc. And the view was awesome. Pool was meh, but they offered free lounge chairs right on the beach. And I have to say it was a great week.

In '07, we decided we'd travel to Maui in '08 and take the kids for the first time. My first consideration was to rent the same villa we'd rented in '06. But when I checked rates, they'd gone up considerably ($425/night). At that time we looked into the possibility of buying a TS, with the understanding that we'd frontload some cash and then have the ability to "rent" our unit in subsequent years at a significant discount, so that our annual vacation dollars would spread farther. After a lot of research, we settled on the Westin.

In crunching the numbers to see whether it made fiscal sense to fork over $50k + $1600 MFs each year, we used the $425 figure as a point of comparison as that is how much it would cost us (and how much we were willing to pay) for a comparable sized unit right up the street from WKORV. At the time, the numbers made sense because our model assumed that MFs would hold steady or increase slightly. Remember, that upfront fee ($50k in my case, up to $100k for others who bought from the developer) was supposed to buy us the right to rent our villa at a steep discount in subsequent years vs. comparable rentals because MFs are supposed to be just that - just the cash needed to run the place.

What has happened instead, is that the MFs have increased to the point where I can now rent the same 2 bdrm unit that I used as a point of comparison for LESS than what I pay in MFs at WKORV. In other words, even if MFs held steady to 2010 figures, our break even point is something ridiculous like 45 years.

Bottom line is that there is very little incentive for buying Starwood TSs anymore, especially the higher end ones because we can't even try to assuage the hurt by trading up like SVV or SBP owners can. They've increased MFs so much that it simply doesn't make sense, even on an emotional level, to pay thousands of dollars for the right to rent at current market rates. Because I could do that, on my own, for free, with no long term commitment.

Hope this helps.

Certainly does help. Thanks.

I hope the economy rebounds causing the same 2 bdrm condo to MORE than your MFs.
 

Troopers

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The $5500 was at $800/night and that's pretty much like a Starwood rate. It helps to think of it that way because it increases the annual "savings" (helps the ownership argument). Realistically, as LisaRex pointed out, compaable accomodations (even WKORV rentals) can be had for much less from private parties.

Don't disagree. Numbers should be analyzed based on what one would have realistically stayed in/paid for otherwise.

I avoid private party rentals (esp at private residences). It's too risky and inconsistent. Pictures and words lie. But deals are plentiful, especially in this economy.

People don't think of these as monthly expenses. It is $2400 for a week vacation versus $1900 a year ago. $350/night versus $270/night... almost a 30% increase. I don't disagree that the economy also plays a part, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find Marriott Platinum weeks that dropped 70% in resale value in 3-4 years. Starwood excessive drop in resale values is also attributable to excessive MF increases.

Marrott also has fee increases that are sometimes high, but not like Starwood... I don't have the data but how much did resale prices of Maui Ocean Club or Waiohai drop since 2005? Is it comparable to going from $40K to $12K-15K?

But...many people budget them on a monthly basis, no different than property taxes. One year, owners are saving $150+/- a month and the next year, $180+/- a month and BOOM, resale values plummet. I just don't see how an additional $30+/- per month is the dealbreaker, considering they were able to plop down tens and tens of thousands of dollars just a few years ago. I just don't get it....maybe they had no business buying one.

I haven't followed Marriott pricing for some time...so I don't know. You may be right that Marriott's resales haven't declined as much but that could also be to other factors (one factor being a larger number of current owners, aka potential buyers). Resale values of all timeshares across all platforms have decreased...but not all MFs have increased significantly, and some MF decreased.

Anyways, I don't disagree with you that MFs play a role in resale values. I just don't think MF is the primary and sole factor as you have suggested in your many posts.

By the way, great discussion. No right or wrong here...just differences in opinion.
 

Troopers

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I think the difference is again related to what you think MFs do to resale prices.

I assume that, in a healthy economy, if MFs are stable (e.g. rise at the rate of inflation) resale prices are relatively stable. So in the high upfront cost, low MF scenario it may take you 10 years to recover your initial investment. If resale prices are zero at the end of that period then that's all you did - recover the initial investment in 10 years and you are right that 5 years is better than 10. But in this scenario, resale prices are not zero at the end of that period. You can actually sell the asset after 10 years for a nice amount so financially it can look much better than option 2.

In the low upfront cost, high and increasing MF scenario you maybe recover your money faster but I believe the increasing MFs drive resale values to zero. So you recover your investment and there is no residual value.

Here is a simplistic illustrative example:

Scenario 1: Buy for $40K, save $4k a year, sell for $30K after 10 years... (I assumed some modest depreciation over 10 years due to say demand for newer resorts)

Scenario 2: Buy for $10K, save $2000 a year on average and sell for nothing at the end of 5 years (assuming MFs are at $4K after 5 years, I assumed full depreciation)

To make the two more "apples to apples",look at a 5 year horizon for both:

Scenario 1: Buy for $40K, save $4k a year, sell for $35K after 5 years...

So in scenario 1, you "save" $20K and lose $5K in equity over 5 years, not bad overall...

In scenario 2, you "save" $10K, but lose $10K in equity so you didn't do much

Of course this is all subject to assumprions but this illustrates why most people who responded prefer scenario 1 - it assumes that resale prices are steadier if MFs are steady.

It is not about recovering the investment - it's about where are you better off dollar wise after you account for MFs and equity depreciation.

Lots of assumptions there but no need to discuss further.

What if the market never collapsed? DOW's at 17,000. People making cash hand over fist. Fat bonuses. Big homes. Toys, toys, toys. Splurging and excess is everywhere. Healthy retirement accounts. Jobs plentiful. TIMES ARE GOOD. LIFE COULDN'T GET ANY BETTER. What's the resale value?

I guess...no...I DO think differently. It's about getting the most bang for you buck as soon as you can. Limit exposure. Maximize opportunity. Reduce risk.
 

LisaRex

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I hope the economy rebounds causing the same 2 bdrm condo to (rent for) MORE than your MFs.

On that, we can most certainly agree! And not just for our sake, but for the sake of those who have lost their jobs and their homes, not to mention their expensive TSs.
 

Fredm

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Marrott also has fee increases that are sometimes high, but not like Starwood... I don't have the data but how much did resale prices of Maui Ocean Club or Waiohai drop since 2005? Is it comparable to going from $40K to $12K-15K?

No question that dramatically higher maintenance fees encourage financially strapped owners to sell. The competition for buyers does further soften sale prices.

But, there is more to the picture than fees. This economy has hit owners across the board.
The difference , IMO, between Marriott and Starwood ownership is that many Marriott owners have sale alternatives not available to Starwood owners.

Marriott will act as the resale agent at sold-out resorts.
While the commission is heavy (40%), the sale price is the current retail price. So, 60% of current retail may be much more attractive than a quicker sale in the secondary marketplace. Owners have to wait longer (sometimes much longer) for a sale. Nonetheless, the psychology of it works to make owners more reluctant to sell for much less in some cases. This has the tendency to prop the price of sold out resorts.

Here is an example

If Starwood would initiate a similar program, my guess is that prices would be firmer.
 

LisaRex

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Fred, I'm pretty sure Marriott just notified owners of at least one resort that they would no longer offer this service.
 

Fredm

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Fred, I'm pretty sure Marriott just notified owners of at least one resort that they would no longer offer this service.

Could be. Don't know. But, in the example I referenced the program was in effect on Jan 7, 2010 for Marriott's Aruba Ocean Club.

Just offering yet another reason why Marriott prices have held up better thus far.
 
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