RCI Class Action

[JLB]

As I've said many times, I would prefer RCI and timesharing to be the closed system it was designed to be, the one they presented to us.

If there is real evidence, that would be different. I don't have any. I have posted in my SW Florida thread for anyone to provide some, anyone, and have not gotten it yet.

I'm fairly certain stuff posted on the Internet would not be admissable.

Gosh, who do I sound like--show me some evidence!!!???

 

[Aldo]

The discussion with RCI employees which has been referred in this thread can be found at:

http://www.timesharetalk.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=165

 

[JLB]

heu·ris·tic (hyŏŏ-rĭs'tĭk) Pronunciation Key

adj.
Of or relating to a usually speculative formulation serving as a guide in the investigation or solution of a problem: "The historian discovers the past by the judicious use of such a heuristic device as the 'ideal type'" (Karl J. Weintraub).

Of or constituting an educational method in which learning takes place through discoveries that result from investigations made by the student.

Computer Science Relating to or using a problem-solving technique in which the most appropriate solution of several found by alternative methods is selected at successive stages of a program for use in the next step of the program.

 

[Carolinian]

Ah, spoken as a true-beleiving points advocate. Clearly you comprehend that when the rentals to the public go down in flames, as they likely will in this lawsuit you don't like, points will be seriously wounded, something that obviously concerns those committed to the points system.

And attacking lawyers is just a red herring.

The consumer hardly holds the solution when dealing with a quasi-monoply like RCI. For resorts that are not dual affiliated and do not inform members about their ability to use independent exchange companies, owners are effectively prisoners of RCI if they want to exchange, and exchanging is why a large number of them bought timeshare in the first place.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to see that in a system where trading power is based on supply and demand, when those running the system start monkeying around with the supply, by looting it for the benefit of rentals and points members, then the ability to trade will be effected.

Points advocates seem obsessed with the trades up that sometimes happen as a natural result of market forces in a market-based system like Weeks, but they ignore the fact that it is the Points system where massive trades up are programed in, often at the expense of Weeks through the unfair generic points crossover grids, but also due to the corruption of the process of assigning points numbers within the Points system itself where somes types of resorts are systematically overpointed at the expense of other resorts.

The ''see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil'' and ''blindly trust RCI'' theory flies in the face of what more and more timesharers are waking up to in the manipulation of the exchange system against our interests.

And just who caused the problems at Enron and the Savings and Loans – Lawyers.

In both cases lawyers are the culprits that were ignorant, misinformed, or crooked.

In both cases the government lawyers sat by and watched the train wrecks happen.

The RCI solution is so simple that lawyers just can’t seem to understand it – 1) There probably isn’t a problem to solve in the first place 2) If there is a solution the consumer holds the solution and not the courts and lawyers

The hysteria whipped up in this chat room has immensely harmed fellow TUGGERS – some have already made decisions based upon the half truths bantered about as being truths.

This is why I don’t like consumer activism dragged into the exchange of knowledge and experience – the two are based upon totally different tenets – knowledge is based upon facts that can be verified; consumer activism is primarily based upon the serpentine words of lawyers. The two are diametrical opposites.

To all of you listening to the theories of why folks can’t get the lopsided upgrades anymore the answer is very clear – “The ride is over”, RCI Weeks has peaked and the new results are going to be the norm – and this started several years ago as RCI Points was introduced.

Asking lawyers to punish and micromanage RCI Weeks is only going to make them rich and you are going to pay for their new BMWs and condos in Maui. Stop listening to the tinfoil hat theories that keep being bantered about and focus on maximizing your vacations for your family – that’s your job as a consumer.

 

[Carolinian]

Once again, Jim, evidence for court is accumulated in the discovery process in the lawsuit. That has just begun. It is likely to be what in the military is called a ''target rich environment''.

As to evdience for discussion on an internet board, however, that does not come under the judicial rules of evidence. There is certainly enough out there from enough credible sources for any timesharer to be concerned.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist for anyone to comprehend that when an exchange company starts diverting supply from the exchange banks, it is going to effect trading.

As I've said many times, I would prefer RCI and timesharing to be the closed system it was designed to be, the one they presented to us.

If there is real evidence, that would be different. I don't have any. I have posted in my SW Florida thread for anyone to provide some, anyone, and have not gotten it yet.

I'm fairly certain stuff posted on the Internet would not be admissable.

Gosh, who do I sound like--show me some evidence!!!???

 

[Aldo]

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to see that in a system where trading power is based on supply and demand, when those running the system start monkeying around with the supply, by looting it for the benefit of rentals and points members, then the ability to trade will be effected.

Any some of those who do realize this, such as Bocabum, don't seem to think that the Spacebank even ought to be a closed system among owners who deposit and exchange. Boca's consideration that a pure rental market might provide the best guage of relative trade power is interesting, but doesn't justify skimming the Spacebank.

 

[PerryM]

Just the facts, Ma'am

It is interesting that most of what we are seeing is a negative heuristic defending RCI based on broad cynicisms regarding the American jurisprudence system.

Very little of this, (albeit some) on the pro-RCI side, seems to want to engage the issues of renting out spacebanked weeks.

Yes, one would certainly hope that the screenshots of RCI employees such as Bootleg and Anon, which have been posted on various internet sites, such as www.timesharetalk.co.uk will be discovered and considered.

As the site indicates, the case is now involved in class action certification.

The disclosures of both Bootleg and Anon not only relate to the charges that spacebank deposits are being wrongly skimmed, they would also be pertinent in showing the existence of a class, one would think.

Aldo,

I love RCI renting out weeks to pay for my RCI Points exchange for airline tickets – so put me down as a supporter of this policy.

As I’ve asked for about 1 year now – just where is the proof that:
1) Anything is wrong
2) RCI is violating it’s own rules

Now I need more than innuendos – something that 90 out of 100 members of this chat room would consider credible evidence – I’m not asking for 100% just 90% - I’ve not seen anything but “evidence” that has me laughing.

Since those here demand the courts get involved I think we should look at all the crazy rulings the courts get involved with our daily life – even the Supreme Court. If this is the forum the activists demand that an arbiter for micromanaging and punishing RCI be found, their track record is worthy of display. My only reaction is one of uncontrollable laughing and crying at the same time.

So as Joe Friday would demand “Just the facts, Ma’am”

There are no facts presented so far – only wild, wacky theories that belong in a comic book with Joe Friday. If I made the claim that I regularly take a gold Marriott week and exchange into a Platinum Marriott week in Maui, I have the proof to back it up – just where is the “Stand up in court” proof to backup the wacky “RCI is a scoundrel” theories? We all know it doesn't exist - this is then the reason to whip up the Tug members?

 

[Aldo]

Perry,

You wrote, in part,

"I love RCI renting out weeks to pay for my RCI Points exchange for airline tickets,"

and then you ask for proof that RCI is renting out weeks.

 

[Carolinian]

There are plenty of facts, but you just choose to ignore them because you seem to think facts presented on an internet board are not ''facts'' unless they meet courtroom standards, an interesting threory for someone who obviously hates lawyers and courts! I don't think we are ever going to have a resident clerk of court on these boards to swear witnesses, so I don't think you will ever get evidence that will satisfy you. However, not to worry, that is coming in the discovery in the lawsuit, which will meet court standards. What will your line be then, I wonder??

And the test is NOT whether RCI violated its own rules. I suspect that Enron and the Savings and Loans did not violate their own rules, either. It is whether RCI's actions violated the law. in this case consumer protection laws. Those laws are pretty broad. North Carolina's, for example, provides that ''unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce, are declared unlawful''.

Is it not unfair when RCI depletes its spacebank to rent out weeks to the general public?

Is it not deceptive when RCI buries a provision in the fine print saying it can use weeks deposited any way it wants to at the same time it presents the system differently to members?

Is it not unfair when RCI provides priime Weeks inventory to Points members at a bargain basement rate but does not even allow trades from Weeks into Points at all?

RCI's own rules or practices can themselves be unfair or deceptive, in which case far from being a defense, the rule helps hang them in court.

Aldo,

I love RCI renting out weeks to pay for my RCI Points exchange for airline tickets – so put me down as a supporter of this policy.

As I’ve asked for about 1 year now – just where is the proof that:
1) Anything is wrong
2) RCI is violating it’s own rules

Now I need more than innuendos – something that 90 out of 100 members of this chat room would consider credible evidence – I’m not asking for 100% just 90% - I’ve not seen anything but “evidence” that has me laughing.

Since those here demand the courts get involved I think we should look at all the crazy rulings the courts get involved with our daily life – even the Supreme Court. If this is the forum the activists demand that an arbiter for micromanaging and punishing RCI be found, their track record is worthy of display. My only reaction is one of uncontrollable laughing and crying at the same time.

So as Joe Friday would demand “Just the facts, Ma’am”

There are no facts presented so far – only wild, wacky theories that belong in a comic book with Joe Friday. If I made the claim that I regularly take a gold Marriott week and exchange into a Platinum Marriott week in Maui, I have the proof to back it up – just where is the “Stand up in court” proof to backup the wacky “RCI is a scoundrel” theories? We all know it doesn't exist - this is then the reason to whip up the Tug members?

 

[Carolinian]

The discussion with RCI employees which has been referred in this thread can be found at:

http://www.timesharetalk.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=165

That is one of several. There are others on the RCI board at Timeshare Talk.

There are others on the RCI board at Crimeshare.

 

[Aldo]

Carolinian,

You should provide links.

You never know who's watching.

Actually, not even that is true.

 

[Carolinian]

Carolinian,

You should provide links.

You never know who's watching.

Actually, not even that is true.

www.rimeshare.org/43.html

www.timesharetalk.co.uk (click on the RCI board)

While much of the Crimeshare material is consistent with other information, I take Crimeshare generally somewhat with a grain of salt.

 

[JLB]

Steve is persistent, something I have complimented him on many times, as I was at one time the one quick to post the link to the AG or the FTC.

He certainly has not found the end of his rut yet.

But I wonder what difference it makes, and, yes, it certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over. It certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over. It certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over. It certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over. It certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over. It certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over.

I guess, any more, I prefer to try to enjoy what little we might have left of our timeshare experience, rather than fret about it incessantly. You know, before the sky falls down.

If RCI is renting Spacebanked weeks to the public, I don't condone that. If they are renting weeks to pay for shortages in benefits they provide to members other than me and mine, I don't condone that. If they are allowing Points members to raid Weeks, I don't condone that. If non-timeshare owners can access any inventory deposited by owners, I don't condone that.

I don't know that there is anything else I can say or contribute, and I am certainly not the villain in any of this (because I choose to discount the word of a disgruntled employee or two, ones who chose to continue receiving the benefits of their employment while disgrunting. )

 

[Carolinian]

Perry,

You wrote, in part,

"I love RCI renting out weeks to pay for my RCI Points exchange for airline tickets,"

and then you ask for proof that RCI is renting out weeks.

As I pointed out earlier, Points and RCI rentals are joined at the hip. If rentals are blown away, Points will be wounded. Small wonder that some of the more vocal Points advocates also support rentals and criticize attacks on RCI rentals.

 

[timeos2]

the problem is the method

Any some of those who do realize this, such as Bocabum, don't seem to think that the Spacebank even ought to be a closed system among owners who deposit and exchange. Boca's consideration that a pure rental market might provide the best guage of relative trade power is interesting, but doesn't justify skimming the Spacebank.

Aldo - I've always felt the spacebank should be a closed loop. But that isn't what RCI says and we agree to if we deposit. So taking advantage of the system, agreeing to the terms and then saying it doesn't work the way we want is disingenuous at best. We all have options if we don't agree with the (current) RCI approach. The problem is the waste of time and money to make the shysters rich vs simply addressing a problem if there is one. Don't deposit with RCI. If everyone that felt the current system is broken did that and it was a significant number things would change. If the vast majority continue to use the system then they are ok with the methodology. This isn't Enron, engaged in outright fraud and in violation of Securities rules and regulations, or the savings and loan scandals (again in violation of Federal rules and regs) but a small, voluntary system to exchange a vacation week or two between owners - hardly on the scale of the national banking system or stock markets. To try to say it is the same degree of problem is ludicrous. There are no Federal regulations for vacation exchanges. If there were RCI would comply or be cited.

The ongoing rhetoric and speculation means nothing, the so called fact finding or discovery isn't likely to disclose any smoking guns (unless the brain trust at RCI is REALLY stupid - it could happen) so the best approach is to utilize the various options out there as best you can. Anyone reading these tirades and using the wild guesses to manage their timeshare usage is being very silly. That goes for both sides of the argument. None of it means anything to the users of today. And its liable to be years before anything changes if it ever does. Do what is best for your wallet and desired use. Don't depend on anything from the outside to change how RCI or anyone else does business. Your week is trading just as well or poorly with RCI no matter what happens regarding these claims. Thats all that really matters. The rest is so much hot air.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Is There An Echo In Here?

It certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over.

Shucks, if TUG filtered out all the repetition in my BBS contributions, what's left would fit on 1 side of a 3x5 card -- not that there's anything wrong with that. So it goes.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[JLB]

Exactly the way Jon and Christel started it!

what's left would fit on 1 side of a 3x5 card -- not that there's anything wrong with that.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Carolinian]

Jim, I suggest you go back and look at how this thread developed. You are right that many of these arguments have been made before, on both sides, but it was Perry who started with the ''broken record'' arguments in this thread, not me. I just responded to them. These are very serious issues for timesharing and I am not going to sit back and let the ''RCI can do no wrong'' side be unchallenged.

The ''show me the proof'' argument is itself a broken record, and quite convenient for the pro-RCI side in that RCI does all it can to hide the proof.

I recall the first time it was used in these discussions, back on the old TUG boards when RCI had just rolled out GPN (the early name of RCI Points) and I pointed out a number of problems with GPN, one of which was that a rather vague comment by RCI clearly showed in my opinion, that RCI intended to rent weeks that came in from Points Partner transactions to the general public. I used logic to show how it could have no other meaning. I was jumped by the points crowd over this, who said this was just speculation and could not possibly be true. Of course, we saw who was right.

Then there was the time that the widespread timeshare rentals on SkyAuction started. I pointed out the circumstantial evidence that indicated this was RCI renting out these timeshare weeks, and again was jumped by the pro-RCI folks saying there was ''no proof''. One RCI/points advocate went so far as to claim these weeks all came from one guy who owned A LOT of timeshare! Of course, it was not too long until some Tuggers won some of these auctions, and received a standard RCI confirmation for them from SKyAuction. The pro-RCI crowd crawled into their holes. Again we saw who was right.

Nothing is going to be enough proof for these pro-RCI folks until it all comes out in the lawsuit. Well, what else is new?

Steve is persistent, something I have complimented him on many times, as I was at one time the one quick to post the link to the AG or the FTC.

He certainly has not found the end of his rut yet.

But I wonder what difference it makes, and, yes, it certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over. It certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over. It certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over. It certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over. It certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over. It certainly does get old hearing exactly the same thing over and over.

I guess, any more, I prefer to try to enjoy what little we might have left of our timeshare experience, rather than fret about it incessantly. You know, before the sky falls down.

If RCI is renting Spacebanked weeks to the public, I don't condone that. If they are renting weeks to pay for shortages in benefits they provide to members other than me and mine, I don't condone that. If they are allowing Points members to raid Weeks, I don't condone that. If non-timeshare owners can access any inventory deposited by owners, I don't condone that.

I don't know that there is anything else I can say or contribute, and I am certainly not the villain in any of this (because I choose to discount the word of a disgruntled employee or two, ones who chose to continue receiving the benefits of their employment while disgrunting. )

 

[taffy19]

Aldo - I've always felt the spacebank should be a closed loop. But that isn't what RCI says and we agree to if we deposit. So taking advantage of the system, agreeing to the terms and then saying it doesn't work the way we want is disingenuous at best. We all have options if we don't agree with the (current) RCI approach. The problem is the waste of time and money to make the shysters rich vs simply addressing a problem if there is one. Don't deposit with RCI. If everyone that felt the current system is broken did that and it was a significant number things would change. If the vast majority continue to use the system then they are ok with the methodology.

So true but what really seems to be the problem is how timeshares are sold to the public who is buying their first timeshare. They are lured by the promise that exchanging is a piece of cake so most people buy for exchanging rather than for use.

After owning a timeshare, they can make up their own mind if it works for them or not. Developers should put more emphasis on buying where you like to visit often and exchanging is an additional perk.

They also should tell the buyer that they have options to trade with anyone they want because they own the week or points. The developers and RCI line each other's pockets rather than having the best interest at heart of the consumer. JMHO, of course. :annoyed:

 

[Carolinian]

Oh my, another ''broken record'' argument.

Contracts of adhesion have been discussed not only on these boards but also at Street Talk on the Timeshare Beat. The membership agreement with RCI fits the classic terms of a contract of adhesion, and a contract of adhesion is unlikely to get very far with a court, particularly a court using the ''unfair or deceptive'' standard of consumer protection law.

The fact that people continue to use the system is not a sign that people agree with what is going on, but merely of the fact that it is a quasi-monopoly and most timesharers don't know they have any other choice if they wish to exchange. All the more reason for the courts to clean up the system.

As far as discovery not finding anything, the info from Bootleg, Anon and others shows it is in there in the records. If RCI destroys their records, that in itself will be a smoking gun. I would hope that the plaintiffs attorneys would seek a list of people who have recently left RCI's employ as part of their discovery. I bet this group would produce some very good witnesses not intimidated to let it all out.

Unfortunately, there is no way to ''simply address a problem'' short of the courts in this situation. RCI is bound and detemined to do it there way unless stopped by someone with authority. I wish the situation were different but it is not.

Individuals not depositing is not a solution. RCI's policies on rentals threatens to undermine the financial foundation of the ownership/exchange model of timesharing and our resorts along with it. That is not a solution. It is merely burying ones head in the sand and hoping the problem goes away. What is needed is a solution with some teeth and that is either legislative or judicial.

As far as the ''poor little small RCI'' not as big as the S&L's or Enron argument, I suspect that RCI is significantly larger than most if not all of the S&L's. The comparision of course is each business to each business, not one business vs. an entire industry.

Anyone who depends on the ''see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil'' and ''blindly trust RCI'' arguments on these boards is being poorly served.
There is no question that the rentals are going on and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that this impacts trading.

And it is easy to see why Points advocates such as yourself want us Weeks members to keep marching like Lemmings over the cliff. ''Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, the great and powerful RCI has spoken!''

Aldo - I've always felt the spacebank should be a closed loop. But that isn't what RCI says and we agree to if we deposit. So taking advantage of the system, agreeing to the terms and then saying it doesn't work the way we want is disingenuous at best. We all have options if we don't agree with the (current) RCI approach. The problem is the waste of time and money to make the shysters rich vs simply addressing a problem if there is one. Don't deposit with RCI. If everyone that felt the current system is broken did that and it was a significant number things would change. If the vast majority continue to use the system then they are ok with the methodology. This isn't Enron, engaged in outright fraud and in violation of Securities rules and regulations, or the savings and loan scandals (again in violation of Federal rules and regs) but a small, voluntary system to exchange a vacation week or two between owners - hardly on the scale of the national banking system or stock markets. To try to say it is the same degree of problem is ludicrous. There are no Federal regulations for vacation exchanges. If there were RCI would comply or be cited.

The ongoing rhetoric and speculation means nothing, the so called fact finding or discovery isn't likely to disclose any smoking guns (unless the brain trust at RCI is REALLY stupid - it could happen) so the best approach is to utilize the various options out there as best you can. Anyone reading these tirades and using the wild guesses to manage their timeshare usage is being very silly. That goes for both sides of the argument. None of it means anything to the users of today. And its liable to be years before anything changes if it ever does. Do what is best for your wallet and desired use. Don't depend on anything from the outside to change how RCI or anyone else does business. Your week is trading just as well or poorly with RCI no matter what happens regarding these claims. Thats all that really matters. The rest is so much hot air.

 

[Aldo]

Dang right it goes on and on and on and on.

I mean, what are we saying here?

That since we've already discussed this for years, it's time to accept getting the spacebank raided and move on?

In other words, it's OK to rip me off because I'm bored with discussing it?

No.

The reason the discussion goes on and on and on is because the injustice keeps going on and on and on.

 

[PerryM]

William of Ockham knew better…

I again state the I love using my RCI Points to get airline tickets, many are below the cost I see at the same moment at the airline. I have no idea what RCI points really does after that but renting of timeshare reservations seems to be what they are doing. (I’ll poke fun at the idea that RCI is violating its own rules and stealing from one hand to put in the other)

Beyond that, I and everyone here are just guessing. There is no proof of any kind. My 20 year old son can gin up any screen you want with PhotoShop. If you want I could ask him to make me the president of RCI- I could have a great document suitable for framing – this is not evidence.

I have no idea what the agenda is of the folks who are foisting legal action as the solution – I can make an educated guess; but I have no proof. I respond here to neutralize the “Say it until they believe it” idiom, since it seems clear that is what’s going on.

I state my position once again:

1) There is NO proof that ANYTHING is wrong with RCI Weeks

2) RCI Weeks has peaked and is declining in value all by itself

3) There is NO proof that RCI Points is violating RCI rules in any way

The simplest explanation is normally the correct explanation; time to do a little reading about Occam’s Razor there are no secret plots to doom the RCI Week owners – just a system that has always been held together with secret formulas and procedures that is being replaced by it’s creator, RCI, with a new system that is open and above board - RCI Points.

This is the simplest explanation, most likely the correct explanation of what's going on with RCI Weeks.

 

[Aldo]

The simplest explanation is normally the correct explanation; time to do a little reading about Occam’s Razor there are no secret plots to doom the RCI Week owners – just a system that has always been held together with secret formulas and procedures that is being replaced by it’s creator, RCI, with a new system that is open and above board - RCI Points.

This is the simplest explanation, most likely the correct explanation of what's going on with RCI Weeks.

Do you actually believe this, keeping in mind the track record of Cendant?
How many shenanigans has Cendant been involved with over the years?
"Open and above board" would be a innovation.

 

[Dean]

No resort on the Outer Banks does that. Only one resort is still in developer sales. Yet the other resorts have weeks showing up on RCI rental sites, that come from only one place - member exchange deposits.

Having weeks for rent doesn't prove they are available inappropriately. There are sources for RCI to "legally" get these weeks to rent out. Whether they are hijacking the system to get these weeks illegally remains to be seen but I've seen no compelling evidence to suggest they are. And if there is reasonable proof provided, I will be very happy to say so. I am glad for the legal action as I HOPE it puts this issue to bed one way or another. But I'll go on record as saying that if it doesn't, that is pretty compelling evidence that it isn't happening.

 

[PerryM]

Spoof free zone

Do you actually believe this, keeping in mind the track record of Cendant?
How many shenanigans has Cendant been involved with over the years?
"Open and above board" would be a innovation.

Sometimes I spoof to make a point - not this time - the simplest explanation is that there is NO problem with RCI Weeks. Just folks wanting to get lawyers and courts involved so those folks can get rich on the backs of RCI owners.

Open and above board is the definition of a Point system over a secret Week system. To argue otherwise requires spoofing.