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Reef Resort says I can't rent my week myself.

T_R_Oglodyte

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From a legal standpoint, this one is pretty simple.. the value if provided through a stay in a property located in the Cayman Islands, hence tax is due and payable, so of course the Cayman Islands government has such authority.

If I visit the US / UK and buy a product for export, I don't have to pay sales tax / value added tax....but if I pay for a service actually utilised in that country, naturally I have to pay the appropriate tax...and that includes hotel taxes.

Enforceabilty is one thing, but authority is without question.

I agree, it's simple.

The tax is to be collected by rentee, licensed in the Caymans..

So owner A, living in the US, rents tentant B, also living in the US. The transaction is between two US residents. The transaction occurs on US soil.

How can the Caymans possibly have jurisdiction? What are they going to do to enforce the law? File suit in the Caymans???

+++++

You are, in essence, asserting that the Cayman's has a legal right to regulate the content of a website that is situated outside the Caymans, with content provided by people who do not live in the Caymans. And you are saying that the Caymans has the authority to do this because the activity discussed is illegal if the activity occurs in the Caymans.

Sorry Tom - no country has the right to regulate activities that occur on foreign soil just because the activity would be illegal were it to occur in that country. If countries had that power, you can be sure that despots the world over would "seeking justice" from people who took actions that annoyed them.

Caymans has every authority to collect an occupancy tax on renters and transients. They have every authority to collect taxes on rental activities that occur within the Caymans. They have authority to collect taxes from Cayman citizens living in other countries when those Cayman citizens rent property in the Caymans.

But the Cayman's have no authority to regulate the behavior and activities of non-Cayman residents that occur outside of lans and waters that are not Cayman territories.
 

TomCayman

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I assume the rental program is NOT funded from maintenance fees. Therefore, what percentage of the gross rental proceeds go to the owner?

Correct, the rental programme is totally independent of the maintenance.

All rental proceeds after rental commission to to our owners, what percentage is between us and our owners.
 

TomCayman

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Perhaps someone else that works at the Reef Resort can give us more of an honest answer, instead of a whirlaround confusing answer to important questions.......

Well Mr/Ms Seaside, you've said in your last few posts :
- I'm dishonest
- Our marketing budget is excessive
- There is no way I can convince you that someone putting their unit in the rental pool should pay a rental commission to help pay for the marketing budget that put the renter in their unit in the first place.

No point in me giving you a substantive reply then, is there.
 

TomCayman

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I agree, it's simple.

The tax is to be collected by rentee, licensed in the Caymans..

So owner A, living in the US, rents tentant B, also living in the US. The transaction is between two US residents. The transaction occurs on US soil.

How can the Caymans possibly have jurisdiction? What are they going to do to enforce the law? File suit in the Caymans???

+++++

You are, in essence, asserting that the Cayman's has a legal right to regulate the content of a website that is situated outside the Caymans, with content provided by people who do not live in the Caymans. And you are saying that the Caymans has the authority to do this because the activity discussed is illegal if the activity occurs in the Caymans.

Sorry Tom - no country has the right to regulate activities that occur on foreign soil just because the activity would be illegal were it to occur in that country. If countries had that power, you can be sure that despots the world over would "seeking justice" from people who took actions that annoyed them.

Caymans has every authority to collect an occupancy tax on renters and transients. They have every authority to collect taxes on rental activities that occur within the Caymans. They have authority to collect taxes from Cayman citizens living in other countries when those Cayman citizens rent property in the Caymans.

But the Cayman's have no authority to regulate the behavior and activities of non-Cayman residents that occur outside of lans and waters that are not Cayman territories.

When Expedia (or any other corporation, US or otherwise) rents a room out to a US (or any other) resident to stay at The Reef, this is a rental on which 10% tourism tax is payable....even if every element of the transaction is located outside Cayman.

Oddly enough I don't know any company in the travel industry that has the slightest problem with the concept of paying appropriate tax over to the government of the country in which the accommodation is located.

This is not exactly a radical concept under the tax law of any country.
 

TomCayman

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Follow the money! I'm curious what's the source of this $1M funding at the beginning of the year? Is it a loan which is to be reimbursed from rental proceeds during the course of the year? Are members of the Management Company salaried employees with sales commissions as an add-on?

Ok, as you asked, a) yes, the $1m funding for rental marketing is funded by the rental management company based on our projections for the expected rental revenues, b) we reimburse that from rental proceeds.

On your last point, I think you are making some incorrect assumptions, you seem to be associating our rental management with our timeshare sales, they are totally separated.
 

TomCayman

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Geez...would it kill you guys to consider our resort (and me) innocent until proven guilty ?

I've been accused (or had it clearly implied) in this thread of being dishonest, of acting illegally, of charging excessive management fees, of using rental marketing commissions to pay sales commissons, of only having a rental programme to help support timeshare sales...so before you get to it...
- I don't kick my dog
- I haven't gone to the dark side and am not part of any branch of the evil empire

Would it kill you to perhaps consider the glass half full instead of half empty ?

theReef has a pretty darned good reputation over the years, and we've done it by taking the simple approach that if we look after our owners, the business side of things will look after itself.....call me crazy, but I like that simple philosophy.

You know, after Hurricane Ivan threatened our lives in Sep 2004, took my house (and that of many of our staff), separated me from my family for months on end, separated me from much of my savings permanently.. what was I doing ?...yup, along with the whole team, we were working 7 days a week, roughly 16 hours per day (sometimes more)... to do what ?... hmm.. get theReef back open for our owners and guests as soon as possible.

What did it cost our owners to get their resort back in record speed ? (we were the first resort to reopen of all those that were forced to close by storm damage)... the princely sum of US$210 per timeshare owner, or 2% of the amount insured... and we even managed to cover the uninsurable parts of the property (pavers, outdoor structures etc) in our insurance settlement.

Oh yeah, while we were closed for four months.... guess what, we never got reimbursed for the rental marketing dollars spent in the months leading up to the Hurricane...we just sucked it up.

Wait, there's more.. for all those owners who could not use their week in the 4+ months we were closed, we gave them an extra week.... no, not a nigh useless giveaway week from II or RCI, but an extra week to use at the resort.

Forget it...based on some of the responses, none of that could possibly be because we wanted to do the right thing by our owners...

Come on guys... give someone with a good track record at least SOME benefit of the doubt instead of calling him dishonest etc etc !

I sent the messages to RedWeek owners to give them a heads up that our government is looking to enforce their laws on this, ie I was providing them with information of value to them....taking care of our owners.

As this thread has started to make accusations towards me and theReef verging on the libellous, I'm going to back away from this, but members of theReef may feel free to contact me at any time.
 

Seaside

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Interesting that you are still "skirting" the issues. Questions have not been about what you have done Post Ivan. We have all heard that information, you have made sure of it. Ivan was almost 4 years ago. What amount of commission do you take? An owner is the one that started this thread and was upset. And wanted to rent out their unit on their own and not put it into your rental pool. Do you have any other staff that goes on this site that can give some answers to questions. THAT would be a good marketing tactic.
 
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TomCayman

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Interesting that you are still "skirting" the issues. Questions have not been about what you have done Post Ivan. We have all heard that information, you have made sure of it. Ivan was almost 4 years ago. What amount of commission do you take? An owner is the one that started this thread and was upset. And wanted to rent out their unit on their own and not put it into your rental pool. Do you have any other staff that goes on this site that can give some answers to questions. THAT would be a good marketing tactic.

Seaside... you are not adding anything, simply insulting me and theReef and insinuating we have something to hide (and surely my lengthy participation in this makes clear the opposite is the case...I am nothing if not open).

If you are an owner at theReef, call or email me at theReef and I will happily discuss any issues with you.

If not, I have in fact already answered the question you pose here.... in several different ways... so have nothing further to add.
 

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What is the percentage that someone who wants to rent will have to "pay" to the Reef if they do their renting through the Reef?
 

Seaside

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Since you have been so "honest" I will be. We have been looking into buying a couple of weeks of Timeshare at the Reef, or perhaps buying the full share of a Condo there, we would then put the Condo on the rental market for the time we will not be there. I can say that we have been a bit turned off by the information on this thread. I ask honest questions. We would be investing big money. We deserve answers. Do not forget that anyone is a potential customer.
 

TomCayman

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Since you have been so "honest" I will be. We have been looking into buying a couple of weeks of Timeshare at the Reef, or perhaps buying the full share of a Condo there, we would then put the Condo on the rental market for the time we will not be there. I can say that we have been a bit turned off by the information on this thread. I ask honest questions. We would be investing big money. We deserve answers. Do not forget that anyone is a potential customer.

Having looked back on previous posts you have made about me and theReef on this and other forums, I would suggest that you have no interest in investing in theReef, given your consistent negativity towards our resort and how happy you appear to be with everything at the other resort you own timeshare at in Cayman.

Enough for this thread.
 

gmarine

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Tom

Expedia etc renting inventory from a resort is completely different than an owner renting their unit. Expedia is working on behalf of the resort to rent resort owned units.

If I own a condo in another country or state and that government has an occupancy tax on guests, it cannot be imposed on owners who live outside of that country/state when they rent to others.

The worst part of this is that The Reef is actively trolling for people renting units. Has the Reef been bought by Westgate?
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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Tom

Expedia etc renting inventory from a resort is completely different than an owner renting their unit. Expedia is working on behalf of the resort to rent resort owned units.

Correct. Expedia is not renting it's own inventory; it is renting Reef's inventory. That puts it into Cayman jurisidiction.

Do you see the difference? Cayman has every right to collect a tax from owners who are domiciled in the Caymans or when the transaction occurs in the Caymans. They have ZERO jurisdiction over what happens outside the Caymans.

Of course, the Caymans has every right to collect a transient occupancy tax from visitors to the Caymans. They can easily enforce that by requiring the resorts to collect and remit the tax.

But they have no authority to tax business transactions by non-Cayman's domiciled entities unless those transactions occur inside the Caymans.

****

This is the same as if a Caymans corporation has stock listed on the New York Stock Exchange. The Caymans would have no authority to require sellers of the stock to pay a sales tax to the Cayman's on the sale of the stock, nor would the Caymans have authority to require the NYSE to collect and remit a sales tax on purchases of securities in that company. The Cayman's certainly could require that same company, however, to pay a transfer tax whenever the Company processed a transfer of ownership in stock certificates. They could also require Caymans residents to pay a tax whenever they purchased or sold those same shares. But they can't extend that taxing jurisdiction to alien non-residents.
 

geekette

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I have yet to see in the linked-to tax law any mention of required licensing to rent.

"timeshare properties must now pay the government US$10 for each day or part of a day for each occupied room."

So why wouldn't the resort already be paying this, whether they extract it from the occupants or not?

I'm not getting why owners should be forced to use the internal rental program as the tax is there no matter what, even if I use my own unit - that's not the true cause of this rental policy.

If I can rent my week out for $X why should I go thru the resort and maybe only get $X - Z? Those that want to use the marketing program can pay the commission and let someone else do the work for them, but an owner that chooses to do it themselves should not be banned from doing so.

I guess I have a bit of fundamental problem with this policy and how it is blamed on the tax deal and phantom licensing requirements.
 

TomCayman

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Correct. Expedia is not renting it's own inventory; it is renting Reef's inventory. That puts it into Cayman jurisidiction.

Do you see the difference? Cayman has every right to collect a tax from owners who are domiciled in the Caymans or when the transaction occurs in the Caymans. They have ZERO jurisdiction over what happens outside the Caymans.

Of course, the Caymans has every right to collect a transient occupancy tax from visitors to the Caymans. They can easily enforce that by requiring the resorts to collect and remit the tax.

But they have no authority to tax business transactions by non-Cayman's domiciled entities unless those transactions occur inside the Caymans.

****

This is the same as if a Caymans corporation has stock listed on the New York Stock Exchange. The Caymans would have no authority to require sellers of the stock to pay a sales tax to the Cayman's on the sale of the stock, nor would the Caymans have authority to require the NYSE to collect and remit a sales tax on purchases of securities in that company. The Cayman's certainly could require that same company, however, to pay a transfer tax whenever the Company processed a transfer of ownership in stock certificates. They could also require Caymans residents to pay a tax whenever they purchased or sold those same shares. But they can't extend that taxing jurisdiction to alien non-residents.


I'm going to agin (glutton for punishment, clearly !)

Expedia is renting timeshare and condo owner (and only some developer) inventory...theReef is a mixed use property, with upwards of 90% of inventory independently owned by our timeshare/condo owners.

Any inventory put up for rent has to be licenced to do so, and the licencing process is onerous and is done by the company that manages the resort/rental programme.

That management company is responsible not only for maintaing standards, passing inspections etc (all the legal licencing stuff), but also ensuring that all rentals have tax collected on the rate charged and that the tax is remitted within 28 days of month end together with detailed reporting of same.

As a matter of interest, if the payment is late, there is a late payment/reporting charge.. of 20%... not 20% per annum, a flat 20%...how is that for a late penalty !

Now, timeshare owners can (in practice) skirt this by renting privately and just telling the resort their renter is a "guest". As a practical matter, it is very difficult to enforce the law if this is done... but when owners (whether timeshare owners, whole condo owners or whatever) are publically advertising rentals (whether on their own website, VRBO, Ebay, Redweek, whatever), they are clearly flouting the law.

If (say) Disney Vacation Club operated a rental programme for owner inventory in Orlando and I booked that, I'd have to pay whatever rental taxes are levied by the authorities (in Cayman it is 10% of rental income), Disney would collect them (as managers) and remit them.

If on the other hand I rented a week direct from an owner and there was a different tax on timeshare occupancy to that charged on rentals (say $10 a day to compare to Cayman), they'd be collecting that from me as they would consider my use "timeshare usage".

A 2BD unit at The Reef costs thousands of dollars per week to rent, so 10% rental tax is a whole lot more than $10 timeshare tax, so one can see how this issues interests the government here.

This thread all started as a result of me trying to give some owners a heads up that this is definitely on the radar for the Cayman government...

In closing, at theReef we DO have a very successful rental programme and the vast majority of our owners consider their usage options in this order :
a) Owner use
b) Rental through the rental programme
c) Exchange last.....

II does a great job for our owners and we have good exchange power, but at the end of the day most people prefer cold hard cash to an exchange, especially when the rental programme does the job.

Let's be honest here, how many timeshare owners can honestly say that their resort does that well with their owner rental programme that they would think to rent it through the resort before exchanging ? It truly is one of our strengths
 

Seaside

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It would be kind if you can give the percentage of what the owner must give to The Reef if they rent out through them.
 

Kal

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The numbers have to be very high to generate a NET to the Management firm of $1M per year.

What's your number?
 

TomCayman

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The numbers have to be very high to generate a NET to the Management firm of $1M per year.

What's your number?

(I'm hoping) For the last time, currently the net to the management company is zero.... the $1m is the total budget, ALL of which is spent on administering and running the programme.

As to anything more specific, that information is for our members.
 

cayman love r

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Give Tom a break!

Tom,

I will come to your defense.

The Reef is a beautiful, well run resort on the east end of Cayman. There are few if any resales on the market. If you do see them listed for sale, they are not at the "please take this unit off my hands!!" prices that you see on Morritts units.

Perhaps the manager of the Reef wants to do things correctly according to the law of the location of the property. Is that so bad? Having a central rental listing area is a good thing. They can reach a larger market than most owners can. If you are renting to Cousin Fred, then you are not listing on Redweek anyway. So the Reef rents your unit, takes a cut for what ever, and the owner gets the rest. If you are an owner, you will know the percentage the Reef takes. If it does not appear to be fair, you can deposit the unit with II. It seems like a great service and help to the owners. Better than being stuck with yet another Special Assessment.

[Personal comment about another poster removed. Please keep TUG's courtesy requirements in mind when posting. Makai Guy, TUG BBS Administrator]
 
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Kal

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(I'm hoping) For the last time, currently the net to the management company is zero.... the $1m is the total budget, ALL of which is spent on administering and running the programme.

As to anything more specific, that information is for our members.

To generate a $1M budget to fund the management operation means two things:

* The management percentage of the rental is very high
* Lots of units are being rented.

Curiously, it would appear that not many owners use their units and the property is more like a hotel.
 

vacationhopeful

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My resort in FL is 40% plus a $100+ cleaning fee ( I question that fee as isn't the TS cleaned weekly as part of the maintenance fees and RCI points guests are only charged $39 for a short week cleaning?).

Resort Management => Outside service is used and they clean the windows, too.:wall:

IMO, this has been an interesting exchange of opinions. The resort manager, TomCayman, has generated a slew of discussion ... and I just appreciate the interchange. Thanks for your time, Tom.
 
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