• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Super fast transfer with Legal Timeshare Transfers

Status
Not open for further replies.

slip

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
11,221
Reaction score
14,754
Points
999
Location
U'alapue/Kaunakakai, Hawaii
Resorts Owned
Pono Kai, 20 wks; Maui Schooner, 1.5 wks; 1 week Ke Nani Kai; WaveCrest Condo, Molokai, HI
I am not assuming anything. I have seen the mistakes that these incompetent scofflaw closing companies make many times in recorded deeds in Dare County, North Carolina. Indeed, the majority of deed chains (they often prepare two deeds when working for the PCC's) from scofflaw closing companies I have seen with my own eyes are invalid to pass title in North Carolina.

If an attorney makes a mistake, when you have remedies against his legal malpractice insurance or by complaining to the State Bar. Good luck with a scofflaw closing company. If your escrow disappears as it did with the John Faeth closing company, also recommended by many on these boards, then in many states the State Bar will have a client security fund to make it good. That did not happen with the victims of John Faeth who were sometimes out thousands of dollars.

If someone from a resort tells you the week is still yours, it will probably be because legally it still is, and then you will have the choice of paying up, or having your credit destroyed. Your choice, just like using a scofflaw closing company is your choice.

Some of the common errors I see on deeds from scofflaw closing companies include:

1) not containing all of the legal requisites for a valid deed in North Carolina
2) using corporate deed templates for individual deeds (this does not always make the deed invalid to pass title but often does)
3) not copying the entire legal description
4) using a legal description from the wrong resort
5) failing to pick up the week and unit number when they are in the body of the deed instead of within the description
6) changing the unit and week number where it appears for convenience but not in the description where it matters from a legal standpoint.
7) using language from another state on joint tenancy. Because of a North Carolina statute and subsequnet Supreme Court case, one has to be VERY specific here or you end up with a tenancy in common instead. This does not invalidate title but it could be very expensive at probate time. An NC attorney in most situations would have solved the problem by creating a tenancy by the entirety instead, which can be done by inserted one word (and it is not ''entirety'') and has the same attributes that most are looking for with a joint tenancy.

One Outer Banks HOA spent thousands of dollars hiring an attorney to try to clean up the deeds at their resort, most of the mess coming from scofflaw timeshare closing companies. Of course, that should have been the expenses of the members in the mess, and not an HOA expense.

Avoiding legal fees can often be a false economy. I remember well one potential client who came in when I was in the private practice of law. To save the ~$200 legal fee at the time for an uncontested divorce, she had copied what someone else had done, prepared her own papers and obtained the divorce. Unfortunately for her, she had a substantial marital property claim agasint her husband for property that was solely in his name, and a divorce decree cuts off that claim unless language is inserted to preserve it. She, of course, did not know to do this and did not include it in the divorce decree she prepared herself. So, to save $200, she shot herself out of the saddle on what would otherwise have been a solid claim for ~$100,000.


OK,OK you were a practicing lawyer. I've read a lot of your posts over the
last few years but I didn't know that. I little disclosure is nice. Seems to me
that your stating some errors you found through these types of company's
that had some problems. I find it REALLY hard to believe that there are no
problems with any attorney prepared deeds. Any problem would be a pain to
get corrected, no matter who made the mistake. As far as getting money back,
the OP had a free timeshare. If there are fees or money that has to be
paid because of a mistake, that would have to be paid no matter who made
the mistake. People have lost money because of problems with lawyers also.
You state a lot of problems when people don't use a lawyer,
there are many bad stories about lawyers also. You still have to to do your
diligence.



We've both made our points, everyone can decide for themselves.
 

rrlongwell

newbie
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,770
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Mechanicsburg, Pa.
OK,OK you were a practicing lawyer. I've read a lot of your posts over the
last few years but I didn't know that. I little disclosure is nice. Seems to me
that your stating some errors you found through these types of company's
that had some problems. I find it REALLY hard to believe that there are no
problems with any attorney prepared deeds. Any problem would be a pain to
get corrected, no matter who made the mistake. As far as getting money back,
the OP had a free timeshare. If there are fees or money that has to be
paid because of a mistake, that would have to be paid no matter who made
the mistake. People have lost money because of problems with lawyers also.
You state a lot of problems when people don't use a lawyer,
there are many bad stories about lawyers also. You still have to to do your
diligence.



We've both made our points, everyone can decide for themselves.

Post 99 has a poster indicating they used this company as a closing company. It will be interesting to see if the poster comes back and indicate what closing services were included and at what price.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,676
Reaction score
950
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Some may be a bit worse than others, but they all have the same defect, the one size fits all mentality as well as being scofflaws. Real property law is state specific, and something that is not required in one state can make a deed invalid to pass title if it is not present in another. Thus the whole concept of a national closing company is skating on thin ice from the very beginning. Some handle this problem by being large and having offices a lot of places like some large title companies. Others, like PCS Holdings, hire licensed attorneys in each of the jurisdictions where they close timeshares. AFAIK this is the only national timeshare closing company that does that to comply with the law and provide competent services, but there may be another I do not know about. It has been posted that Just Deeds, which advertises on TUG, also uses licensed professionals in each state to draft their deeds.

Most attorneys are not going to know the nuances of deed requirements from state to state. A layperson is even less likely to do so. I believe I posted earlier about a deed at my OBX resort prepared by a Tennessee lawyer (who was not licensed in North Carolina and should have known better than doing a NC deed) that did not convey good title in North Carolina. Our HOA secretary noticed the problem, and we helped the buyer put the heat to the Tennessee lawyer to get someone qualified to produce a proper deed. He did,but if he had not we would have supported the buyer in taking a complaint to both Tennessee and North Carolina authorities. I am sure his deed would have been fine in Tennessee but some variations in state real property laws meant it was not in NC.

There was a time that barbers would also pull teeth. Using a scofflaw closing firm to do a deed is about like going to a barber for your dental work.

I must say that this outfit's Orwellian use of the term ''Legal'' in their name really grates on me and makes me really want to see them put out of business. They ought to call themselves Illegal Timeshare Transfers.

I may be wrong, but slip was referring to Legal Timeshare Transfers, not the PCC closing companies. I have closed a timeshare with LTT twice and they were better than any other closing company I have done business with. Their efficiency, accuracy and cost make them my #1 choice for any future need for a closing company.
 

Ridewithme38

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,325
Reaction score
4
Points
273
Location
Long Island, NY
can make a deed invalid to pass title if it is not present in another.

So, what is the ultimate test to see if a deed is valid or invalid...Would they county/state recorders office really accept an invalid deed? If they accept it, doesn't that MAKE it a valid deed? If they accept an Invalid deed, how can it be ruled invalid down the line if there is no 'chain' to know if a lawyer filled it out or not?

I realize that real estate law is different per state but, I think what we are talking about is semantics...If its accepted by the County/State and recorded, its a valid deed...weather the preparation of it made it invalid up to that point or not seems like a pointless argument, i mean, how would they even prove who prepared it?

Odd's are i'm wrong about this, but if both parties, the buyer and seller, agree to the transfer, sign the deed and its recorded by the county....Who's going to dispute it?
 

rrlongwell

newbie
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,770
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Mechanicsburg, Pa.
So, what is the ultimate test to see if a deed is valid or invalid...Would they county/state recorders office really accept an invalid deed? If they accept it, doesn't that MAKE it a valid deed? If they accept an Invalid deed, how can it be ruled invalid down the line if there is no 'chain' to know if a lawyer filled it out or not?

I realize that real estate law is different per state but, I think what we are talking about is semantics...If its accepted by the County/State and recorded, its a valid deed...weather the preparation of it made it invalid up to that point or not seems like a pointless argument, i mean, how would they even prove who prepared it?

The states that I own property in, the recording with the court house is just that. A recording. It does not mean the dead is legal, illegal, or anywhere in between. There are not clear cut answers to your question that I am aware of. If Title is a issue, that is what title company insurance policy insure against.

The issue, it appears to me, is not necessarily who prepares the deed, but is the deed preparation an illegal practice of law in any given state. The answer could vary be state.
 

ace2000

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Messages
5,032
Reaction score
152
Points
498
DeniseM's central gripe with post card companies' using LLCs has always been around the intent with which they were created. She maintained that they are set up as "viking ship" LLCs for the express purpose of screwing HOAs at some point in time, a purpose she and others have maintained is illegal.

I could find dozens of posts where DeniseM mentioned that it was illegal, and she scolded ebram dozens and doznes of times for bringing up the LLC approach. She even set up a sticky post on a thread that was all about the LLCs being branded as illegal activity in some states.

For me, the point is not whether it's illegal or not. Because I personally would use this company. The point is why continually scold someone else and scoff at the LLC approach as being illegal and then come here and promote another illegal activity? When it comes down to whether either of two are illegal or not, there really is not much difference.

Edit: I just feel every voice should be heard on TUG, and I gain something by hearing all sides, regardless on whether I'm in agreement or not. Now, carry on, and go back to discussing to whether this illegal or not.
 
Last edited:

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
57,775
Reaction score
9,189
Points
1,849
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, 2-SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim)
Post 99 has a poster indicating they used this company as a closing company. It will be interesting to see if the poster comes back and indicate what closing services were included and at what price.

Didn't you already tell us that you looked this up on their website and called them? :shrug:

It has already been stated many times that this company does no frills deed preparation - that's it.

That means they prepare the deed and mail it.
 
Last edited:

AwayWeGo

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
15,715
Reaction score
1,647
Points
699
Location
McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.
Resorts Owned
Grandview At Las Vegas

[triennial - points]
I Semi-Resemble That Remark.

I must say that this outfit's Orwellian use of the term ''Legal'' in their name really grates on me and makes me really want to see them put out of business. They ought to call themselves Illegal Timeshare Transfers.
I do not watch American Idol on TV because I abhor idolatry & I want nothing to do with any entertainment spectacle using idol in its name.

They ought to call themselves American Pop Star or some such.

I don't specially care whether the show goes off the air or its producers go out of business. I just don't want to be part of the viewing audience.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
57,775
Reaction score
9,189
Points
1,849
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, 2-SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim)
For me, the point is not whether it's illegal or not. Because I personally would use this company. The point is why continually scold someone else and scoff at the LLC approach as being illegal

That's like saying if I'm OK with jaywalking, I should be OK with bank robbery, too!

Or if I'm OK with littering, I should be OK with vandalism.

Or if I'm OK with going 3 miles over the speed limit, I should be OK with going 100 miles over the speed limit.

Completely illogical...

If you really believe that the problem with Viking Ship LLC's is that they are "illegal" then you don't begin to understand the issue.
 
Last edited:

Beefnot

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
62
Points
284
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I could find dozens of posts where DeniseM mentioned that it was illegal, and she scolded ebram dozens and doznes of times for bringing up the LLC approach. She even set up a sticky post on a thread that was all about the LLCs being branded as illegal activity in some states.

For me, the point is not whether it's illegal or not. Because I personally would use this company. The point is why continually scold someone else and scoff at the LLC approach as being illegal and then come here and promote another illegal activity? When it comes down to whether either of two are illegal or not, there really is not much difference.

Edit: I just feel every voice should be heard on TUG, and I gain something by hearing all sides, regardless on whether I'm in agreement or not. Now, carry on, and go back to discussing to whether this illegal or not.

From what I recall, she scolded about the illegality of viking ship LLCs because of what she believed to be their very purpose for being in existence. They are allegedly trying to shaft HOAs and thus owners. It is not because an LLC is somehow inherently evil.
 

Beefnot

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
62
Points
284
Location
Los Angeles, CA
There was a time that barbers would also pull teeth. Using a scofflaw closing firm to do a deed is about like going to a barber for your dental work.

Bad analogy. It is not as if our "scofflaw" firm in question is a yogurt shop who has deed preparation services in the back. They are in business to do nothing more than deed transfers.
 

ace2000

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Messages
5,032
Reaction score
152
Points
498
Completely illogical...

If you really believe that the problem with Viking Ship LLC's is that they are "illegal" then you don't begin to understand the issue.

Please find one of my posts where I ever said anything about having a problem with LLCs. My problem is with the hypocrisy.

Here's one post that clarifies... I'm sure there are many more. I don't have time to look for the one you tried to make into a sticky stating how it was found illegal in some states. Anyway, I'm done.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164099&highlight=LLC+illegal
 

Beefnot

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
62
Points
284
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Please find one of my posts where I ever said anything about having a problem with LLCs. My problem is with the hypocrisy.

Here's one post that clarifies... I'm sure there are many more. I don't have time to look for the one you tried to make into a sticky stating how it was found illegal in some states. Anyway, I'm done.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164099&highlight=LLC+illegal

You are posting a link to something that DeniseM has already acknowledged and established, that creating LLCs for purposes of being a viking ship is both illegal and immoral.

What hypocrisy that you are referring to exactly? That she does not place moral equivalence between the viking ship model and perhaps illegal deed preparation services? Or because she cited potential illegality of a practice (shafting HOAs and owners) she finds morally repugnant, she should also cite potential illegality of a practice (simple deed preparation) which she does not?
 

ace2000

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Messages
5,032
Reaction score
152
Points
498
You are posting a link to something that DeniseM has already acknowledged and established, that creating LLCs for purposes of being a viking ship is both illegal and immoral.

What hypocrisy that you are referring to exactly? That she does not place moral equivalence between the viking ship model and perhaps illegal deed preparation services? Or because she cited potential illegality of a practice (shafting HOAs and owners) she finds morally repugnant, she should also cite potential illegality of a practice (simple deed preparation) which she does not?

I think everyone can get what they want out to from the points I raised. If you don't get it, then read a little slower. You're really not adding anything to the discussion.

I appreciate Denise's contributions TUG, I just have a very minor disagreement with her on the LLC topic. If I was voting, DeniseM would win the TUG MVP award hands down.
 

Beefnot

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
62
Points
284
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I read even slower, and no, I don't get it. I don't see what you've added to the discussion either, so the feeling is mutual.
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
22,199
Reaction score
7,816
Points
1,099
Location
Florida
keep it on topic people
 

ThreeLittleBirds

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
630
Reaction score
9
Points
228
My timeline to date:

Received documents on July 27th

Deed recorded on August 8th

And in true Olympic competitive spirit, hoping the resort transfers quickly and I can beat DeniseM by a full 2 weeks.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,676
Reaction score
950
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Bad analogy. It is not as if our "scofflaw" firm in question is a yogurt shop who has deed preparation services in the back. They are in business to do nothing more than deed transfers.

And they wantonly violate the criminal law in many states to do it.

I have seen too many invalid deeds recorded by these unqualified unlicensened scofflaw deed preparers. If you want just a cheap deed, why not use a firm that obeys the law (and is a TUG adveriser to boot) like Just Deeds?

Bootleggers are in business to do nothing more than make whiskey (or other alcoholic beverages). Is that where you suggest we should buy our booze?
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
22,199
Reaction score
7,816
Points
1,099
Location
Florida
I dont think anyone is advocating doing anything illegal...and as said before if you feel so strongly about it...report them.

if they are in the wrong, they will either correct it...or be dealt with by the proper authorities.

or youll find out that everything you read/post on the internet is not always accurate.
 

AwayWeGo

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
15,715
Reaction score
1,647
Points
699
Location
McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.
Resorts Owned
Grandview At Las Vegas

[triennial - points]
So, Exactly How Bad Is Legal Timeshare Transfers ?

I have seen too many invalid deeds recorded by these unqualified unlicensened scofflaw deed preparers.
Back when you encountered all those bad timeshare deeds in Dare County NC -- you know, the ones that wouldn't pass muster & couldn't pass title -- approximately how many of those had been prepared & filed by Legal Timeshre Transfers ?

( Just wondering. )

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

rrlongwell

newbie
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,770
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Mechanicsburg, Pa.
I vote that threads are closed as soon as someone threatens to tattle to the authorities! :D

If I were TUG Brian, I would not even consider this. If somethinig was a big enough crime and it came to the Authorities attention that Tug Brian closed a thread to assist in preventing law enforcement authorities from finding out about it, this could case him to have a headach worse than Excedrian Headach 101.
 

rrlongwell

newbie
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,770
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Mechanicsburg, Pa.
Didn't you already tell us that you looked this up on their website and called them? :shrug:

It has already been stated many times that this company does no frills deed preparation - that's it.

That means they prepare the deed and mail it.

Unfortunatly, their web site does not agree with what you said. Please see the below that was extracted from their site. They appear to be collecting money on behalf of the HOA. It is an act of faith if it gets there or not. To their credit, no one has reported problems with there collecting the money due the HOA for transfer fees.

"If your resort requires a transfer fee, this fee will be in addition to our fees. We will forward these funds to the resort when we notify them of the ownership change."

http://www.legaltimesharetransfers.com/index-2.html
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top