Are there really any buyers out there now?

[foreverloves]

Instead of all the speculation and those with their tunnel vision focused only on that tiny share of the market that is eBay,.

I want to exude all due respect that my status as a newbie requires.

However.

Seriously?

Ebay is an important segment of the marketplace. Were it not, those big resellers wouldn't bother paying the 35 bucks to list the ad there. There'd BE no timeshares listed, because there wouldn't be any buyers looking. If the resellers felt that their inventory could be unloaded at a higher profit, why would they bother with ebay? They'd just list with redweek or myresortnetwork, because their potential profit would be huge. Think of the score they'd get selling the timeshares at higher prices, including the huge markup they get from the closing costs. It would be utter folly to sell in a marketplace that is but a "tiny share" of the actual sales environment.

Denise, one of our esteemed moderators , routinely advises the dozens of people weekly who come here with a "is this company a scam? They want two grand to take my timeshare away" to -- do what? Search ebay for completed listings to get an idea of what their timeshare is actually worth! Terrible advice for such a tiny shard of the "true" marketplace....?

Each platform for sales (TUG, redweek, myresortnetwork, ebay, etc) is its own sales environment. There are people who are thrilled when they talk a seller on redweek down a few hundred dollars. Compared to other sales (that are not as transparent) on redweek, they might be right. But compared to the overall sales evironment?

That's like feeling good because you bought a home for $150,000 after talking the seller down $10K, but ignoring the fact that there was an identical FSBO house that sold for $30K less -- but we should ignore that, because FSBOs are a very small portion of a larger (retail) marketplace.

It was mentioned that those sales figures don't include the OFFERED timeshares in those developments. I'd love to see that ratio. Regardless, buyers hold many of the cards. Sellers who insist on prices that are unsupported by empirical data will wait. They could get lucky, and good for them.

Sellers who offer timeshares within transparent, readily available, sold comparables, will sell, because buyers will buy. Fewer buyers will buy at higher prices. The guy trying to sell Surfwatch for $23,000 might find a buyer at some point, I guess. (Of course, he's trying to sell on ebay, so...)

 

[dchilds]

I just found TUG, after trying to sell my Florida timeshare for years and gettig scammed twice! What I want to know is this: with the down economy, are there really any buyers out there?

I purchased one about two months ago. Just closed. Buyer's market. Free 2010 usage, all closing and transfer costs paid. $98. Using in Sept. Saved me about $500-800 in hotel costs for 5 nights.

I'll use it every year, it's a place I go twice a year.

 

[timeos2]

I want to exude all due respect that my status as a newbie requires.

However.

Seriously?

Ebay is an important segment of the marketplace. Were it not, those big resellers wouldn't bother paying the 35 bucks to list the ad there. There'd BE no timeshares listed, because there wouldn't be any buyers looking. If the resellers felt that their inventory could be unloaded at a higher profit, why would they bother with ebay? They'd just list with redweek or myresortnetwork, because their potential profit would be huge. Think of the score they'd get selling the timeshares at higher prices, including the huge markup they get from the closing costs. It would be utter folly to sell in a marketplace that is but a "tiny share" of the actual sales environment.

Again with the respect due to a long standing and well respected TUG member the idea of tunnel vision or focus on an extremely small slice of the timeshare market may be applied to that poster as well. We all tend to post about what we know and that can sometimes zero in on a limited segment.

Trying to say the market as a whole is reflected in one County's records or a venue such as eBay is just wrong. Areas and sales are all over the map in timeshare. A major problem is the lack of structure or a recognized market for resales that can allow them to find a natural pricing level. But eBay is a MAJOR player at this point if only based on the number of offers alone.

 

[theo]

Nope...

You should remember a simple thing called a "quit claim deed". I am not sure how it works with RTU properties - but I know if I have a deed, I can basically turn it back over by filing one of these as long as there are no outstanding debts (MFs) owed. Something to keep in mind ...

There always needs to be an informed and accepting grantee; a quitclaim deed does not in any way change or circumvent that indisputable fact. What you state above is true only if / when there is indeed an informed, accepting recipient (grantee).

If you believe that anyone can just simply and unilaterally "dump" their ownership of a timeshare by preparing and/or recording a quitclaim deed with an unsuspecting, non-accepting grantee, you are very much mistaken. On the contrary, to do so would be approaching entrance to an area generally known as fraud.

 

[bolcel]

Bolcel

This is the best time to switch to the POINT system, which is what you need in this economy(short stays,etc). We did just that and picked up 50,000 points for doing it, we now can convert one our week units to points, and vacation with 3 day weekend often. !!

 

[theo]

True enough...

We all tend to post about what we know and that can sometimes zero in on a limited segment.

No argument there John, but to that very point we can all perhaps agree on one thing --- there is simply NO accurate "one size fits all" proclamation regarding the timeshare marketplace. There are just far too many local variables in regard to geography, seasonal demand, etc. for there to be any (accurate) universal or collective proclamations or conclusions.

 

[classiclincoln]

As far as the answer to the question of whether or not there are any buyers out there, I'm always looking for quality resorts in good locations with the right seasons. Keep me in mind!

 

[GTLINZ]

There always needs to be an informed and accepting grantee; a quitclaim deed does not in any way change or circumvent that indisputable fact. What you state above is true only if / when there is indeed an informed, accepting recipient (grantee).

If you believe that anyone can just simply and unilaterally "dump" their ownership of a timeshare by preparing and/or recording a quitclaim deed with an unsuspecting, non-accepting grantee, you are very much mistaken. On the contrary, to do so would be approaching entrance to an area generally known as fraud.

I have mispoken apparently. I researched your response and you are correct. Thank you for correcting this issue.

 

[Carolinian]

The point is that eBay is a tiny share of the overall market in terms of timeshares changing hands. Add to that the fact that such a large percentage of its listings are coming from PCC's who have a big motive to try to collapse prices there, since their big score comes with suckering the mark out of $3K to offload the week to them.

All of these people who shoot from the hip have yet to come up with some REAL NUMBERS from anywhere that shows that eBay is a significant portion of the timeshare market ANYWHERE. How about it? How about some real numbers in stead of speculation?

I want to exude all due respect that my status as a newbie requires.

However.

Seriously?

Ebay is an important segment of the marketplace. Were it not, those big resellers wouldn't bother paying the 35 bucks to list the ad there. There'd BE no timeshares listed, because there wouldn't be any buyers looking. If the resellers felt that their inventory could be unloaded at a higher profit, why would they bother with ebay? They'd just list with redweek or myresortnetwork, because their potential profit would be huge. Think of the score they'd get selling the timeshares at higher prices, including the huge markup they get from the closing costs. It would be utter folly to sell in a marketplace that is but a "tiny share" of the actual sales environment.

Denise, one of our esteemed moderators , routinely advises the dozens of people weekly who come here with a "is this company a scam? They want two grand to take my timeshare away" to -- do what? Search ebay for completed listings to get an idea of what their timeshare is actually worth! Terrible advice for such a tiny shard of the "true" marketplace....?

Each platform for sales (TUG, redweek, myresortnetwork, ebay, etc) is its own sales environment. There are people who are thrilled when they talk a seller on redweek down a few hundred dollars. Compared to other sales (that are not as transparent) on redweek, they might be right. But compared to the overall sales evironment?

That's like feeling good because you bought a home for $150,000 after talking the seller down $10K, but ignoring the fact that there was an identical FSBO house that sold for $30K less -- but we should ignore that, because FSBOs are a very small portion of a larger (retail) marketplace.

It was mentioned that those sales figures don't include the OFFERED timeshares in those developments. I'd love to see that ratio. Regardless, buyers hold many of the cards. Sellers who insist on prices that are unsupported by empirical data will wait. They could get lucky, and good for them.

Sellers who offer timeshares within transparent, readily available, sold comparables, will sell, because buyers will buy. Fewer buyers will buy at higher prices. The guy trying to sell Surfwatch for $23,000 might find a buyer at some point, I guess. (Of course, he's trying to sell on ebay, so...)

 

[timeos2]

It is a never before seen buyers market

The point is that eBay is a tiny share of the overall market in terms of timeshares changing hands. Add to that the fact that such a large percentage of its listings are coming from PCC's who have a big motive to try to collapse prices there, since their big score comes with suckering the mark out of $3K to offload the week to them.

All of these people who shoot from the hip have yet to come up with some REAL NUMBERS from anywhere that shows that eBay is a significant portion of the timeshare market ANYWHERE. How about it? How about some real numbers in stead of speculation?

The only fact that is beyond any question of validity is a very simple one that impacts every resort and owner. There are tens of thousands of owners looking to sell - in fact it may easily be hundreds of thousands but that gets a bit speculative. And there are far fewer buyers - as in maybe a few thousand at any given moment. And even those that exist have extremely narrow criteria for purchase that effectively eliminate the vast majority of weeks for sale.

So the bottom line is there is one rare commodity in timesharing. That is the resale buyer - especially for any specific timeshare. Look at all the other numbers and pronouncements anyway you like. Nothing changes the fact that without a willing buyer you cannot sell whatever you hold to sell. Matching your offer with those one or two elusive buyers is the trick and it just gets harder all the time to achieve. For every transfer / sale you see recorded there are at a minimum hundreds if not thousands of similar offers in the general area to sell that aren't getting even a nibble from buyers.

That sellers outnumber buyers 10,000 to 1 at least is a given. And that is an unheard of buyers market.

 

[Carolinian]

And the real numbers from a real place that can be verified which back up your assertion are where?

The only fact that is beyond any question of validity is a very simple one that impacts every resort and owner. There are tens of thousands of owners looking to sell - in fact it may easily be hundreds of thousands but that gets a bit speculative. And there are far fewer buyers - as in maybe a few thousand at any given moment. And even those that exist have extremely narrow criteria for purchase that effectively eliminate the vast majority of weeks for sale.

So the bottom line is there is one rare commodity in timesharing. That is the resale buyer - especially for any specific timeshare. Look at all the other numbers and pronouncements anyway you like. Nothing changes the fact that without a willing buyer you cannot sell whatever you hold to sell. Matching your offer with those one or two elusive buyers is the trick and it just gets harder all the time to achieve. For every transfer / sale you see recorded there are at a minimum hundreds if not thousands of similar offers in the general area to sell that aren't getting even a nibble from buyers.

That sellers outnumber buyers 10,000 to 1 at least is a given. And that is an unheard of buyers market.

 

[NYLady]

I am new to traditional timesharing. I have owned DVC for 7 years now and love it! I just put in an offer for a Marriott timeshare and did not get it for free-not even close. It is at a highly sought after resort for President's week-so with that I think they go for a premium (hope so for my sake). I am a teacher with zero flexibility-so this is one of the few timeshares that work for me. I am actually now thinking of buying another week during Platinum season, so I can get my 13 month booking window. So crazy people like me are buying!

What Marriott timeshare did you buy that has a deeded week? I thought all Marriott timeshares worked like the one where we purchased (in Aruba) and required getting a reservation every year. As a teacher, don't you have the summertime available also?

 

[timeos2]

Tens of thousands and it took 3-5 minutes.

And the real numbers from a real place that can be verified which back up your assertion are where?

Take your pick. Run a quick scan for timeshares for sale. They are beyond easy count at each site.

For sale offers from:

TUG 2688
Timeshares Only - 6787+
Sell My Timeshare Now 41,377+
Timeshares Direct 14,777 + (vs 510 sold - no time frame for sales)
Redweek 674 (US only)
eBay 1364
Craigs List 671 (Orlando Only)


So in 5 minutes using very limited search tools and picking only 7 sites out of literally hundreds that pop up we get over 68,000 offers to sell - that doesn't scratch the surface.

Meanwhile for success at selling we point to even the busiest areas with a few hundred transfers per month if that. The success rate has to be under a percent or two as a factor of all weeks offered.

There are plenty of units/weeks for sale, you can pretty much name your resort, week, etc. What is lacking is a recognized marketplace and any semblance of price stability. The sellers simply dwarf the number of willing buyers by thousands. I don't see it changing soon. Your week(s) competes with many of then out there as they tend to be similar in far too many ways. Even the best weeks/resorts are seldom special enough to draw more than a few hundred or perhaps a couple thousand in premium. After that the savings and the options are just too tempting for most informed buyers.

 

[Kola]

Take your pick. Run a quick scan for timeshares for sale. They are beyond easy count at each site.

For sale offers from:

TUG 2688
Timeshares Only - 6787+
Sell My Timeshare Now 41,377+
Timeshares Direct 14,777 + (vs 510 sold - no time frame for sales)
Redweek 674 (US only)
eBay 1364
Craigs List 671 (Orlando Only)

While the TOTALS listed may well be absolutely correct (I haven't tried to verify) if one takes a more selective approach the totals listed quickly decline. For example: a) how many TUG listings are outdated ? b)how many are in locations that are of no interest to me (or you, any anyone) ? c) how many are one bdr. units or even studios without a kitchen ? d) how many are in 'resorts' that are basic converted motels or old cottages ? e) how many are floating off-season weeks, - ie. you never get the right to a decent high-season week ?
Let me clarify that I am not looking to buy, but I do occasionally take a look at what people are trying to sell. The fact is that, IF I wanted to BUY, the selection offered is rather slim.

Well, some owners have a poor product that cannot be given away. That truism applies to most real estate on the market. Add to it the OVERSUPPLY of newer units built by reputable developers (ie. Marriott) and you have a hard nut to crack. OK, that's my opinion.

K.

 

[Carolinian]

You are looking at only one side of the equation. Your assumptions about no buyers is where your problem is. Any numbers to justify that assertion are still missing. Without numbers on both sides, there is no basis for your assertions. I would suggest narrowing it down geographically to make counting feasible. That is why I looked at an area I am familiar with, two resort towns on the OBX. When you compare sales this year with past sales or with weeks being offered for sale, it shows that your theory does not apply on the OBX, or at least this part of the OBX. I suspect that you will find lots of other areas that real numbers disprove your theory. But it is like other real estate, there are indeed probably some distressed areas out there.

You are the Orlando expert, so why don't you give us some real numbers, on both sides of the equation, for Orlando?

Take your pick. Run a quick scan for timeshares for sale. They are beyond easy count at each site.

For sale offers from:

TUG 2688
Timeshares Only - 6787+
Sell My Timeshare Now 41,377+
Timeshares Direct 14,777 + (vs 510 sold - no time frame for sales)
Redweek 674 (US only)
eBay 1364
Craigs List 671 (Orlando Only)


So in 5 minutes using very limited search tools and picking only 7 sites out of literally hundreds that pop up we get over 68,000 offers to sell - that doesn't scratch the surface.

Meanwhile for success at selling we point to even the busiest areas with a few hundred transfers per month if that. The success rate has to be under a percent or two as a factor of all weeks offered.

There are plenty of units/weeks for sale, you can pretty much name your resort, week, etc. What is lacking is a recognized marketplace and any semblance of price stability. The sellers simply dwarf the number of willing buyers by thousands. I don't see it changing soon. Your week(s) competes with many of then out there as they tend to be similar in far too many ways. Even the best weeks/resorts are seldom special enough to draw more than a few hundred or perhaps a couple thousand in premium. After that the savings and the options are just too tempting for most informed buyers.

 

[AwayWeGo]

eBay All The Way. ( Some Of The Way? A Little Of The Way? Any Of The Way? )

That is why I looked at an area I am familiar with, two resort towns on the OBX.

Any chance OBX represents a narrower slice of the timeshare resale market overall than, say, eBay ?

( Just asking. )

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[pappy123]

You can give them away

Earl,

I've trying to sell my Wyndham deed/points for 3 years and finally posted it for $1.00 on TUG. I got 9 inquiries and have sold it for $50 plus the buyer is taking care of all the fees. I want to retire soon and with $72/month main.fees at Oceandrive, it was toooo much to keep paying and I didn't want to "burden" any family members with it if something should happen to me. The folks that are buying it have started a vacation rental business and are buying ts's to use for that-www.PremierVR is their web site. Maybe you could work something out with them.

I'm just glad to be out from under. I had it listed for $3000 and it didn't sell.

Katie

 

[Carolinian]

Any chance OBX represents a narrower slice of the timeshare resale market overall than, say, eBay ?

( Just asking. )

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

The key is the geographical markets. eBay these days is heavily influenced by the PCC's. But even before, it was the bargain basement. When I was in charge of resales for my HOA, we sold on eBay, but prices there were not as good as when Yahoo auctions were going, or the early days of Bidshares. There was also an independent UK auction site we sold on a few times that brought decent prices, but when it was bought by eBay and merged, it suddenly did not perform anymore. eBay has never brought the prices that some other auction sites have.

eBay is a tiny, tiny fraction of the market for any geographical area. The key to look at sales are the county tax offices. That's what really tells the story, and none of the gloom and doom purveyors seems to want to count sales in the areas they are familiar with. If more do so, then we get some real numbers.

 

[pedro47]

I did not know that there were so many timeshare units/weeks for resale until I read John post.

My question is why are developer's still building new timeshare resorts in places like Williamsburg and Orlando?

 

[am1]

The short answer is that people will still buy them.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Y I would suggest narrowing it down geographically to make counting feasible. That is why I looked at an area I am familiar with, two resort towns on the OBX. When you compare sales this year with past sales or with weeks being offered for sale, it shows that your theory does not apply on the OBX, or at least this part of the OBX.

I'd like to see real numbers for places with a good amount of timeshares...Orlando, Williamsburg, Poconos

I think that will give you a MUCH more realistic number then the OBX Numbers did

 

[AwayWeGo]

The Old Razzle-Dazzle.

My question is why are developer's still building new timeshare resorts in places like Williamsburg and Orlando?

The timeshare biz, sorry to say, is based on dazzling people with a strong "wow" factor while overwhelming them with way more all-new information than they can possibly absorb, with the idea in mind that people will commit themselves to a big bux full-freight purchase before they have a chance to do any fact-finding or comparison pricing.

Shux upon'm -- the full freight timeshare sellers, I mean, not the people who get dazzled by the timeshare sellers' ballyhoo.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[bankr63]

I'd like to see real numbers for places with a good amount of timeshares...Orlando, Williamsburg, Poconos

I think that will give you a MUCH more realistic number then the OBX Numbers did

I had a mind to, but Orlando is too large a geographic area to do what Carolinian is doing in a smaller market. There are 3 main counties recording deeds in the area, and the two I checked do not allow bulk download of data (actually I think Osceola might, but you have to be a paid member; you can't get aggregate numbers from the public portal).

To put it to a smaller area it might be possible to focus on a smaller microcosm of Orlando, a single resort. But then we would argue about whether it was truly representative of the overall market as well. You really need a certain amount of national data that is not readily available to prove any of these assertions.

We all know we are right, in our own stances, and the truth will never be known without a concerted effort. What we have proven for OBX probably does not stand as representative of all areas; it is only proof of the reality in OBX.

 

[foreverloves]

I'm not sure what it matters in relation to the overall point.

Whether ebay represents a 1% share of the resale marketplace (which I highly doubt) or it represents 10%, 50%...whatever - its mere EXISTANCE as a viable platform for sales cannibalizes the whole marketplace. It skews it. It's a place to seek comparable inventory and in about 99% of the cases, get the identical item for far, far less.

If I want to buy a 2 bedroom at Marriott's Grande Vista in Gold Season, and it sold on ebay for $2K, why would an owner of MGV Gold Season try to sell it for $10K? It's an identical comparable in most cases. And it might be different if maybe one, two, even THREE units sold in the last few months at that price, but it's not 1 or 2. It's dozens. The PCCs know it, which is why they utilize ebay.

Not to mention expediency and overall speed. For even a moderate unit listed at a buck, the sale is fast. What's that worth? You can list your unit for $6K and wait and wait. Or you can list it for a dollar, hope it gets bid up, and be done in a matter of days, and close in a matter of weeks.

As long as places like ebay exist for a direct comparison of units, prices will remain lower than some owners want. The real trick, since it's true that the PCCs dominate, is to stop giving the PCCs their inventory. If they have no inventory, they go away. If they go away, then where's my comparison? Suddenly, that $10K MGV might look good. (Not to me, but to someone.)

 

[sorryibought]

Are these transfer companies scams

We have a selling nightmare. We traded our 2 timeshares from the caribbean to Moon Palace, Cancun. We paid Holiday $1,600 and our 2009 maintenance fees. We were told everything is ok. Now, 2010 we were turned over to a bill collector, it is a real mess, apparently we still own our original timeshares plus the new. Moon Palace took it back, never notified us, we called, called and emailed all with no response, and we are now in negotiations with them. But, we still have the 2010 fees and the upcoming 2011 fees. A recourse is contacting the BB and the Federal Trade Commission. They wanted us to start process over with new group. Global vacation, but I am thinking all these might not be on the up and up. That is a good question, are there buyers are have the resorts figured out a way to get people to buy new when they still own and still be responsible for the prior timeshares