Weeks to points the new ripoff

[kdrew]

Glad I have a fixed week........

I am very glad I have a deeded forever fixed week! I never liked floating weeks nor points. Now I have even more of a reason not to like them!

Great thread!

Ken

 

[Mel]

There are only about 80 really prime weeks at the resort (8 weeks (21-28 ) times 10 2 bed units) available when your kids aren't in school. The only owners I talked to who are swapping to points have weeks 21-28 (a couple of 29-30 weeks) listed on their deeds. If you have week 27 (4th of July usually) listed on your deed, no one but you can reserve that week 11 or 12 months in advance if you swap to points, and that includes points owners. That turns the week from floating or points to virtually fixed with the points option. They have 100% guaranteed that they can reserve week 27 every year. A waste of $4000? They have stopped competing with owners like me for 4'th of july and now own the option to reserve week 27 every year 2 months before anyone else can. I booked 4th of july week last year as a floating owner.

A few questions, which might clear up what is truly happening. You must understand that the salesmen will say whatever they have to in order to convince the "prospects" that they will have an advantage over others for that $4,000. That doesn't necessarily make it true. If you know one of the owners that has decided to convert, see if you can look over the contract.

One of you is likely to be upset once you do this, but I lay even odds that the person who is converting will be upset rather than you.

1) My first question - did you buy your week from Escapes! or as a resale? If you bought from Escapes, was the week listed on the deed part of the negotiation, or did they just pick a week to assign?

2) Is the resort still selling? Maybe in a new phase? If so, is it possibe these owners will in fact be converting to deeds in the new phase? Or are they perhaps buying units in the new resort - Escapes! to The Shores, which is also in Orange Beach. I don't know what they would then plan on doing with the weeks are your resort, but they might use them as part of an exit program for new prospects

3)When you say there are only 10 units, I assume you mean on 10 2BR units, and all other units are smaller?

I would read the contract, to see what it REALLY says, you might find you're worrying over nothing. If the contract does in fact seem iron-clad, then refer to the bylaws of your HOA, and see what those say. Check your deed, and you can find the documents that restrict your ownership - these are what you need to read, because they ALSO restrict everybody else. If the document compelling you to participate in the floating week program is referred to on your deed, it would need to be changed before these other owners are able to commit their deeded weeks to another program.

This may require a call to the Baldwin County probabte office, where the records are held. You should be able to find out it the documents have been amended, and if they have, you need to hold your HOA members accountable. That type of change is generally not possible by a simple vote of the HOA - it must be ratified by a certain percentage of owners.

 

[tombo]

I am open for suggestions on how to proceed

I complained on the phone to Escapes and they told me to complain in writing. I did it in writing stating that it wasn't right for the Developer (in a resort that has been sold out for years) to give advantages, not previously available to any owner, to owners who now were willing to pay an "extortion fee" and swap to points gaining a huge reservation advantage. I told them that for them to diminish the inventory available to owners and to reduce the value of owner's weeks through their new marketing strategy was wrong an possibly illegal. I told them that to allow the owner's who paid the "upgrade fee" to book the week listed on their deed 2 months ahead of other owners should not be allowed since it never was before. Never since the resort was opened did having a floating week with unit A-22, week 27 (for example) listed on your deed give you an advantage of reserving that week and unit before any other owner with a 1-52 float could have a chance to reserve it. Now for $4000 unit A-22 week 27 is that owner's (in the example) to reserve every year 2 months ahead of any floating 1-52 weeks owners and even 2 months ahead of the new points owners. I said you are turning floating weeks into virtually fixed weeks with a points option for a huge fee. What follows is the resort's response in it's entirety deleting the respondant's name:

The answer to your question is relatively simple. The inventory of weeks for Float owners and the inventory of weeks for ETC owners are completely separate pools, and therefore can have, and do have, different rules for usage.

The weeks purchased by floating owners are available for reservation by floating owners. The weeks purchased, and those dedicated for sale, by and to points owners are available for reservations by points owners.

Accordingly, the fact that points owners have a home resort priority right for their deeded week does not prejudice floating owners in any way, since the points inventory is not available to float owners for use.

Sincerely............

 

[tombo]

Answera to your questions

1) My first question - did you buy your week from Escapes! or as a resale? If you bought from Escapes, was the week listed on the deed part of the negotiation, or did they just pick a week to assign?

I bought it resale so I don't know if the week on the deed was used as a selling point or not. I know that it was irelevant with regards to what week you could reserve and when you could reserve it as there were no points and all that mattered was if you owned a 1-52 floating week.

2) Is the resort still selling? Maybe in a new phase? If so, is it possibe these owners will in fact be converting to deeds in the new phase? Or are they perhaps buying units in the new resort - Escapes! to The Shores, which is also in Orange Beach. I don't know what they would then plan on doing with the weeks are your resort, but they might use them as part of an exit program for new prospects.

The resort I am at is not selling (salesman told me that he had no inventory available) weeks or points, just converting weeks to points. They are not building now and there is no room to build a new phase in the future. Escapes to the Shores is a huge condo building currently under construction about a mile up the road and it will be an escapes points only resort from what I understand. They are not buying in the new resort because if that was the case they wouldn't have a deed at Escapes to Orange Beach which has a week and unit listed allowing them to reserve their exact unit and week 12 months in advance.

3)When you say there are only 10 units, I assume you mean on 10 2BR units, and all other units are smaller?

I am talking about 10 2 bed room units. I am not sure how many 1 bed room units because I never would trade for one of those as I bought a 2 bed room and like to bring my children. This resort has over 50% of the condos owned by full time owners (not timeshare) who are not related in any way to Escapes. They have their own HOA separate from the timeshare Escapes unit"s HOA. From what I understand Escapes purchased a block of condos from the condo developer and sold them as timeshares with floating weeks. This is why there are only 10 2 bed rooms in the float pool. Oh I am wrong, there were 10 total units w/ 50 weeks each in the float pool, but a new points pool has been created siphoning weeks from the original pool.

 

[timeos2]

Sounds like its time to raise the bar

Tombo -

Based on the answer you received it is time to take your concerns to the State. Find out what agency has charge over timeshare sales/operation and file a complaint in whatever format they require.

If, as the answer from the resort seems to imply, they are changing the process form a 100% float time to using the deeded week as the automatic deposit to the points pool you have a case. Time to go after them with a club they will respect - the State Agency is that club.

 

[PerryM]

Dump it is probably the correct answer....

Or, just dump the timeshare and buy something better...why fight these guys.

Place ads to sell your unit and find a buyer and see if that price/loss is something you can live with and just move on.

I view timeshares as an investment and I regularly have losing investments and dump them. Don't get emotional here - boil it down to just money and see if it really is worth all the hassle of ownership versus a loss on this one investment.

 

[timeos2]

The owners have to speak up

Or, just dump the timeshare and buy something better...why fight these guys.

Place ads to sell your unit and find a buyer and see if that price/loss is something you can live with and just move on.

I view timeshares as an investment and I regularly have losing investments and dump them. Don't get emotional here - boil it down to just money and see if it really is worth all the hassle of ownership versus a loss on this one investment.

Perry - He sounds like an owner who bought the resort because he loves it & wants to use it. Nothing wrong with the effort to protect what he bought and a few owners like him are needed to watch over every resort - especially the smaller ones. I applaud his passion and think he should follow up with the regulators as it sounds like the management is playing far too loose with the rules to make money.

 

[tombo]

It is more than an investment

I own timeshares at 12 different resorts, and all but this one are as Perry says for use, rent, or sale when I need to, be it for profit or loss. The rest aren't anything but peices of property. The reason that this one resort is special is because I have been vacationing in the Orange Beach area for over 2 decades with my parents, my brother, and with my children. When I only went on one vacation a year (before timeshares and with a different job) it was to the Orange Beach area due to it being only 3 and 1/2 hours drive from home, and because we know and love the area.

Every other week I have purchased is in a place I would like to go every year in case I don't trade or rent them. All of my other weeks were purchased only when I felt that I was purchasing them cheap enough so that I could sell them in the future if need be, hopefully breaking even or even making a little profit. Conversely,I paid way too much for the floating week at Escapes to Orange Beach because I wanted to stay in this area a week every year, and it is one of only 2 oceanfront resorts in the area. I bought it resale and paid a lot more than I have paid for any other resort knowing it wasn't to sell, trade, or rent. This resort was going to be used every year by my family and my children's children for many years to come.

When Pahio sold to Wyndham, I sold 2 of my 3 weeks immediatelly (amazingly for a profit) and I have retained a 2 bed 2 bath ocean front unit for the time being. If it becomes hard to reserve the week I want due to the swap to Wyndham points as the sales reps proclaim, I will sell my last unit before I pay their extortion. I like Pahio but I can rent one in the future if I want to go, and I don't go there every year due to airfare for 4 to 6 being so expensive.

If I can't get a week during the summer in the future when the kids are out of school it will diminish the value to me greatly. I have been reserving a week here at Escapes for my family, then my brother rents the same week somewhere at Orange Beach for his family, and we all eat out and visit during the week. His children are young and can only go during the 10 week window as they get out of school after Memorial Day and return to school the first week in August.

To make a long story short I hope there is a way that I can legally prevent them from running me off from the only resort that I was never planning on selling or renting. What State Dept. should I contact? The state Attorney General? I am afraid that I will not be able to win as I am sure that they have paid lawyers to figure out how to do this legally. I am also afraid that if I raise too much hell that they will put a note in the computer by my account telling the reservations operators to inform me that there are no weeks available in the future, even if there are some available, just to run me off. I could make it even worse on myself by fighting them. This is why I am here getting advice from the people who know the most about timesharing.

Thanks, Tom

 

[timeos2]

What State Dept. should I contact? The state Attorney General? I am afraid that I will not be able to win as I am sure that they have paid lawyers to figure out how to do this legally. I am also afraid that if I raise too much hell that they will put a note in the computer by my account telling the reservations operators to inform me that there are no weeks available in the future, even if there are some available, just to run me off. I could make it even worse on myself by fighting them. This is why I am here getting advice from the people who know the most about timesharing.

Thanks, Tom

Tom - I'm sorry if you already said but I don't recall. What state is the resort located in?

 

[tombo]

Orange Beach, Alabama

Very few timeshares in this state so probably not many people in government knowledgable about timeshares. The home of Escapes is Arkansas I think.

Thanks, Tom

 

[timeos2]

Here's the contact you want:

Alabama Real Estate Commission
1201 Carmichael Way
Montgomery, Alabama 36106-4350
FAX 334/270-9118 -
Telephone 334/242-5544

The state the resort is located in calls the shots no matter where the home of the developer may be.

You may want to call and find out what process they use.

Good luck.

 

[tombo]

Thanks for the advice

Here's the contact you want:

Alabama Real Estate Commission
1201 Carmichael Way
Montgomery, Alabama 36106-4350
FAX 334/270-9118 -
Telephone 334/242-5544



I will call them Tuesday or Wednesday and see what they say. I feel sure the resort has their bases covered legally but it never hurts to try.

Thanks for all your help, Tom

 

[Jennie]

"The developer is forcing you to pay additional money to maintain your timeshare's value for something the developer has spent no additional money on. If you don't you will lose value in your original purchase, as compared to other owners who pay the extortion fee."

I'm not totally clear about which Points system is being discussed. There's mention of RCI Points, Wyndham/Fairfied, and BlueGreen.

I can speak with certainty only about RCI Points. An owner of a fixed-deeded week can convert his week to RCI Points. Had he not done so, he would presumably have used the fixed week himself, or rented it out, or deposited it with RCI or another exchange company. So it would not have been available for you to exchange into anyhow.

I do see how the waters might become "murky" for owners of "floating" weeks unless a system is set up to oversee the fairness of the reservation process.

Much of what the salesperson told you is as false as what they say when trying to sell a deeded week. Those of us who have been long-term members of TUG have debated the pros and cons of the value (or lack therof) of RCI Points for several years now. Many think it is a great deal. Others feel it is a total rip-off. A lot depends upon a person's vacation style--"different strokes for different folks."

Points were a tremendous deal for some people when the program was just getting started and there was an abundance of pfd weeks available. I have a friend who was able to get up to 6 prime weeks in Hawaii using the points she received for one week she had converted to RCI Points. This went on for a few years, then dried up. Now, she complains that RCI has raised the number of points needed to get even one prime week in Hawaii. A lot of experienced TUGgers are aware of this and have no interest in getting involved in converting.

Other very knowledgeable TUGgers, who believe that RCI Points provide better value for their needs, have been purchasing already converted weeks on Ebay for a fraction of the developer's price. I bought one such week for $700.. It gives me 58,500 points a year. It is at a resort where I already own two prime fixed-deeded weeks. I have been totally "underwhelmed" at the exchange choices being offered when I do my own on-line searches at RCI's web site, using RCI Points. My deeded weeks are pulling a much larger number, and better quality, of weeks. If this situation continues, I will let my RCI Points membership expire at the end of the 3 year period, and let the converted week revert back to being the original fixed week owned by the previous owner.

So, there are many experienced owners who will never convert (or will "unconvert") based upon their own experience, or the info they receive about other people's experience.

There are also a lot of owners who have no intention of converting to Points. Either they like coming to their resort every year. Or they have been very satisfied with the exchanges they have received. Or, even if they believed the lies the salesperson is telling them, they do no have the money to convert, or do not choose to spend the money to do so.

Each year when I vacation at one of my favorite home resorts, I go on the Points presentation. (The fools never ask if I've been on the presentation before). I receive an $80. gift card, free lunch, and the pleasure of confronting the saleman about all the bulls... he is spewing out.

During my 2 weeks at the resort, I watch the parade of potential victims returning from these presentations and have been able to give many of them enough TRUE information to decide to rescind their purchase. Or to stop worrying that they may have passed up the "deal of the century" by not buying into the program. It really upsets me to hear all of the "scare tactics" being used to make people (especially the elderly) believe that the fixed ts week they own "will soon become worthless." What a sleezy thing to do to people who are trying to have a nice vacation. I met a lovely couple who had not been able to sleep all night because they couldn't figure out if they should convert or not. They owned a prime week at this great resort and they use the week every year. I can't for the life of me understand what they thought they would gain by converting to Points.

For all of the above reasons, I do not believe there will be a large number of people converting. The cost alone will deter most.

 

[Aldo]

I am having trouble following the complaint about Pahio. First of all, they joined RCI Points at the outset. So Wyndham is not introducing points to the Pahio system. They have been around since the inception of RCI Points. What Wyndham is doing is introducing Fairfield Points, but only at units that are bought or converted into that system. (As far as I can see, this might have ramifications as to which units are available at Bali Hai, but little else.)

RCI Points owners do not get any jump on Weeks owners as to when they can reserve a unit at Pahio.

The advantages of buying into the Points system at Pahio do not lie with competition against other Pahio owners. If someone intends to use their own unit (floating or otherwise), they would be much better off not paying the conversion fee. They would be paying for what they already have.

(As far as Escapes! goes, I understand your complaint. What needs to be changed is the ten month reserve date for owners. I agree that this should not be out of sync with the Points reservation period.)

Exactly. Points are an OLD ripoff, hardly a new scam, like the OP seems to think it is.

 

[tombo]

I am wary of Wyndhan/Pahio too

When Pahio offered RCI points there weren't many adavntages for the money, and not many people at Pahio seemed to convert. Also RCI didn't buy Pahio, just offered points there. Wyndham bought Pahio and has more control than RCI ever would have. The Wyndham points sales reps say that they are setting the new system up where the points owners will have first shot at the best weeks eventually limiting what will be available to the floating week owners who don't convert.

Not as bad as Escapes Points turning a deeded week into a fixed week with the points option for money, but still a rip-off. At Pahio every unit was floating 1-52 for a like unit. Now every time they convince an owner to convert, they are reducing the availability to owners who don't. I am not that concerned about Pahio becoming hard to obtain good weeks because there are so many floating weeks available, but the sales reps make you feel as though if you don't convert you will soon not be able to get a good week.

To add to my concerns of Wyndham getting more control over the Pahio resorts, the 2 Pahio Kauai Beach Villas weeks I sold to individuals were purchased by Wyndham by exercising their right of first refusal. People say that Wyndham will only have control over the new Bali Hai, but how many other weeks are they obtaining under ROFR? I sold one and the closing company said Wyndham was getting it. I sold the 2'nd one and ROFR again.

I purchased all 3 of my Pahio weeks resale and never heard anything from Pahio about ROFR even though I purchased them resale for less than I just sold 2 of them for. Pahio had sold the resort out, and was simply managing the resort and occasionally selling repo units as they should do. Wyndham is buying up every week in all of the Pahio resorts they can get their hands on to re-sell as points in all Pahio resorts.

Finally Pahio Kauai Beach Villas was starting construction on a badly needed new pool this summer or fall to be completed by early 2008 at the latest. I called PBV recently to see when the pool was expected to be completed as I am staying there for a week in February and I was hoping it would be ready. I was informed that the old pool would still be available for use in Feb 2008. I said all permits and plans were approved, construction was supposed to be going on now, why the delay? They said that Wyndham had decided to wait. Pahio was getting KBV a new pool, Wyndham has stopped the project for the forseeable future, I assume to focus on their points sales and construction sales the new Pahio additions.

Whenever a resort starts making money converting weeks to points, they seem to forget about the people who already own there. All they care about is making that new money from the conversions. If I am wrong about Wyndham changing things for the worse for weeks owners, then I will be sorry that I sold 2 Pahio KBV weeks. I am pretty sure that will not be the case. Tom

 

["Roger"]

When Pahio offered RCI points there weren't many adavntages for the money, and not many people at Pahio seemed to convert....

Just a couple of quick comments about this opening sentence. I don't want to get into the speculation about Wyndham.

I did convert and it took me about two and a half years to recoup the cost of conversion because of the extra trades I made through points. (Each of those years I took my better trade and attributed to what I would have gotten if I had traded via Weeks. Then, I took a conservative estimate of what it would have cost to get a room for the trips I took with my leftover points.) I don't want to even think about how long it took me to recoup the cost of buying a unit originally. (I bought before resales were well known.)

Secondly, I believe Pahio has one of the highest conversion rates into points. (I heard a number, but can't verify it. What I can say is that Pahio resorts are always available for Points trades - much more so than other resorts.)

 

[regatta333]

The Wyndham points sales reps say that they are setting the new system up where the points owners will have first shot at the best weeks eventually limiting what will be available to the floating week owners who don't convert.

I think the sales rep was feeding you a line. Wyndham points owners are able to reserve at their home resorts starting at 13 months before check-in.
They get a 3 month jump on Wyndham points owners who are deeded at other resorts. Not sure how far in advance you are currently able to reserve at your resort, but I own 2 floating summer weeks at a former Equivest resort that was taken over by Wyndham several years ago. Wyndham keeps sending me letters to try to get me to convert these weeks to points, but there is no incentive for me to do that if I want to continue to reserve my summer weeks at this resort. Currently, I can reserve my weeks up to two years in advance, as long as my maintenance fees are paid, so there is no way the owners who convert to points will have an advantage over this.

 

[johnmfaeth]

As I was reading this thread and contemplating the endless stream of lies and deceptions promulgated by TS sales types, it occurred to me that these "un-truths" focus in two areas - Greed and Fear...

When offering an initial purchase timeshare, they are often sold as a great deal which must be grabbed that day or lost - an appeal to Greed. I say greed becuase their hope is that one's desire for a "killer" deal will overwealm the human nature to check it out further or "sleep on it".

Once hooked, a continued money stream is obtained via Fear - "Convert to points or you will lose out".

While this has always been obvious, first time I am now able to sum up the behavior pattern with just two words.

This should have come to me sooner coming from a financial markets background, I must be a little slow, but think about it next time you are being "pitched".

And remember, when someone is pitching BS, you don't want to play catcher...

 

[geekette]

And remember, when someone is pitching BS, you don't want to play catcher...

Pah haa haaa!!!! Wow, that is going to come in soooo useful at the office...

 

[PerryM]

Do Overs and hot feet...

As I was reading this thread and contemplating the endless stream of lies and deceptions promulgated by TS sales types, it occurred to me that these "un-truths" focus in two areas - Greed and Fear...

When offering an initial purchase timeshare, they are often sold as a great deal which must be grabbed that day or lost - an appeal to Greed. I say greed becuase their hope is that one's desire for a "killer" deal will overwealm the human nature to check it out further or "sleep on it".

Once hooked, a continued money stream is obtained via Fear - "Convert to points or you will lose out".

While this has always been obvious, first time I am now able to sum up the behavior pattern with just two words.

This should have come to me sooner coming from a financial markets background, I must be a little slow, but think about it next time you are being "pitched".

And remember, when someone is pitching BS, you don't want to play catcher...

Anyone 18 years of age or older is responsible for the documents they sign.

I can’t blame the developer in the slightest – I mean it.

All those that sign the sales contract and other documents have the right to rescind, anywhere from 3 to 10 days. Now if there is some funny business with that right then I will impugn the salesrep and developer for this one behavior.

There are many folks who buy a product/service who get buyer’s remorse and don’t have the ability to back out. This is NOT the case for the timeshare industry.

Do the salesreps tell white lies, full blown lies, ignorant responses – of course they do; not all but a certain percentage, that we can only guess at, do this to Ma and Pa who just wanted that free gift.

Those “today only” incentives are state laws in some/many states. The developers dragged a $10 bill thru their state legislature and enough politicians slithered out to pass the developer’s laws - that's how government works.


The internet is available FREE in every library in the US I believe. If there isn’t one at the resort a free internet source is available to everyone in the US. I can’t comment on foreign free sources to the internet. I guess there are folks who don’t know how to turn on a computer and run Google, but I’ve got to believe they are in the very small minority now who buy timeshares.

What I’m getting at is that after someone buys from the developer the new owners have every opportunity to type in “Timeshare” and in 4 hours will learn a horrific amount of information – and probably TUG. If Ma and Pa are too lazy or hung-over or just too busy on vacation to check up on a $35,000 purchase then Ma and Pa deserve exactly what they bought.

Personal responsibility for one’s actions is a cornerstone to a free market – big brother can’t yell “Do Over” when Ma and Pa come crying and moaning that they now have buyer’s remorse.


There are plenty of ways that the new owner can learn a lot about timeshares before the right to rescind expires - let's hold the consumer's feet to the fire as much as we hold the salesreps feet to the fire.

 

[johnmfaeth]

Come now Perry, even the free market type in you must get pleasure at abusing the timeshare salesmen at your resorts when they spout the proverbial "stuff".

Yes, I must admit, statistics demand that there be some truly honest timeshare sales types out there, gives me great hope that someday I may even meet one myself...

 

[PerryM]

Lots of blame to spread around...

Come now Perry, even the free market type in you must get pleasure at abusing the timeshare salesmen at your resorts when they spout the proverbial "stuff".

Yes, I must admit, statistics demand that there be some truly honest timeshare sales types out there, gives me great hope that someday I may even meet one myself...

On a scale of 1 to 10 of complexity, timeshares have got to be at least a 9 when it comes to consumer products/services.

There is no way that 90 or 120 minutes can cover even 50% of the salient topics that a new owner must understand to use the timeshare. Throw in some fast talking, totally incorrect information, and stretching the truth our new timeshare owner has his/her eyes glaze over.

Will the new owner do the due diligence needed for such an expensive item - no. Will the new owner know everything to make that important decision - no. Basically the new owner makes the decision knowing full well they are not making a fully informed decision. Should we blame the salesreps - no.

Granted the developer and salesrep frame all this into a fast pitched, even high pressure event but our owner is the grown up here that signs that sales contract.

All I'm saying is that both parties share the blame when there is a mismatch between the new buyer and the new timeshare. It's too easy to blame the developer and let the owner off Scott free.

 

[tombo]

I assume con men are OK too.

If your theory that the resort and salesmen can say anything and it is still totally the owner's fault if he buys is correct, then I assume you have no problem with con men ripping off the elderly, after all the elderly are full grown adults.

When some con man sells someone some stock or land worth virtually nothing I assume it is acceptable to you because some grown person was trusting and not knowledgable about the sale. This elderly person has been around for decades and they should have known better. It is blaming the victims of crime rather than the criminal. You are giving a free pass to the crooked lying salesmen at the timeshares, and to the resorts that turn a blind eye to these tactics if not wholeheartedly endorsing their sales force's blatant lies and half truths. People should be told the truth and allowed to make their purchase decision with valid facts.

I hope no con man knocks on your door to sell you some stock, land, or to get you to invest in a real estate development when you are in your golden years and your mental faculties are failing. I have talked to several elderly owners who were scared into changing to points or "upgrading" at a high price they couldn't afford. They were saying I didn't want to do it but we paid tens of thousands when we bought it and we couldn't lose all of our investment by not paying for the points conversion. To believe that it is the buyer's fault is beyond embracing capitalism, it is saying that the resorts and their sales force can do or say anything misleading, misrepresenting, or tell outright lies, and if the buyer purchases based on this misinformation it is still their own fault.

I can speak for myself and many people here on TUG and say that my first timeshare purchase was one in which I got ripped off. The fact that I was new to timesharing didn't give a lying crook the right to lie to me and misrepresent the facts. Thank goodness my first sad experience was resale and I just purchased at a sorry resort that was a dump and wouldn't trade well as promised. I might have as easily gone to a presentation and gotten fleeced for $15,000 to $20,000. I owned weeks at 15 different resorts and educated myself by trial and error before I happened upon TUG. You seem to think that everyone should know to surf the web. Many people aren't computer literate, and many don't ever know that they could rescind the contract.

The blame should be placed upon those doing and saying anything to make the sale. As with all crimes we should not blame the victim. Taking advantage of people, whether it is legal or not, is not anything anyone should be proud of or condone.

 

[PerryM]

Second hand information works both ways...

If your theory that the resort and salesmen can say anything and it is still totally the owner's fault if he buys is correct, then I assume you have no problem with con men ripping off the elderly, after all the elderly are full grown adults.

When some con man sells someone some stock or land worth virtually nothing I assume it is acceptable to you because some grown person was trusting and not knowledgable about the sale. This elderly person has been around for decades and they should have known better. It is blaming the victims of crime rather than the criminal. You are giving a free pass to the crooked lying salesmen at the timeshares, and to the resorts that turn a blind eye to these tactics if not wholeheartedly endorsing their sales force's blatant lies and half truths. People should be told the truth and allowed to make their purchase decision with valid facts.

I hope no con man knocks on your door to sell you some stock, land, or to get you to invest in a real estate development when you are in your golden years and your mental faculties are failing. I have talked to several elderly owners who were scared into changing to points or "upgrading" at a high price they couldn't afford. They were saying I didn't want to do it but we paid tens of thousands when we bought it and we couldn't lose all of our investment by not paying for the points conversion. To believe that it is the buyer's fault is beyond embracing capitalism, it is saying that the resorts and their sales force can do or say anything misleading, misrepresenting, or tell outright lies, and if the buyer purchases based on this misinformation it is still their own fault.

I can speak for myself and many people here on TUG and say that my first timeshare purchase was one in which I got ripped off. The fact that I was new to timesharing didn't give a lying crook the right to lie to me and misrepresent the facts. Thank goodness my first sad experience was resale and I just purchased at a sorry resort that was a dump and wouldn't trade well as promised. I might have as easily gone to a presentation and gotten fleeced for $15,000 to $20,000. I owned weeks at 15 different resorts and educated myself by trial and error before I happened upon TUG. You seem to think that everyone should know to surf the web. Many people aren't computer literate, and many don't ever know that they could rescind the contract.

The blame should be placed upon those doing and saying anything to make the sale. As with all crimes we should not blame the victim. Taking advantage of people, whether it is legal or not, is not anything anyone should be proud of or condone.

Oh, come on now, that's not what I said.

Ma and Pa want that free gift and get talked into buying a timeshare. We are not privy to the conversations and some here will assume all lies were told and some will assume the normal sales BS happened.

Ma and Pa have a grace period to get out of the transaction - if they let it expire and never take the time to do due diligence then, yes, I put the blame on them, they are grown ups.

Someone show me the last time a timeshare salesrep was hauled off to jail for lying to a customer? I just don't remember such an event. Surely if what many here believe to be correct this should be happening on a frequent basis.

It's just too easy to blame the salesrep as a slime ball and let Ma and Pa off the hook.

So is the salesrep guilty as charged? Well, I've attended over 30 sales presentations in 6 years and the salesreps are guilty of passing on second hand information that is bad - and I've found a few lies but the vast majority of what the salesrep says has a ring of truth to it.

Blame the salesreps all you want but Ma and Pa are ultimately responsible for their actions. If they feel they have been ripped off they can call the developer and the authorities and file charges. But, like I said, where are these police photos of timeshares salesreps hauled off in handcuffs to jail?

 

[Carolinian]

''Converting to points'' is nothing but a scam to try to make you buy what you already own all over again. Such flim-flam ought to be vigorously stamped out through legislation or litigation. In many states, it probably already is covered by existing consumer protection laws which are generally very broad. I would at least try making written complaints to both the Real Estate Commission where the timeshare is located and to the Consumer Protection Division of the state Attorney General there.

When developers sell every week there is in their inventory, they need to build a new resort to make more money. Instead they diminish the value of the weeks you own by making points more valuable. I own at Escapes to Orange beach and they are converting to points. When originally purchased, a week 3 at the home resort and a week 27 had the same chance at 4th of july by reserving 10 months in advance at the home resort. Now if you buy points you can reserve the week on your deed 12 months in advance virtually making it a fixed week with the points option. Now the points owners will be able to reserve all of the prime summer weeks before the owners who bought weeks originally can even call to reserve a week. How can they legally take away the value of your week by selling points after all the weeks there have been sold out? Easy because we are all suckers. If no one bought the points they would go away. Sadly that is not the case. Now my Pahio resorts in Kauai have been bought by Wyndham. I could reserve any week I wanted (1-52) easily up until now. Now I fully expect Wyndham to diminish the value of my floating week by offering points. No one would buy points if you owned a week and there was no advantage.Beyond the points conversion strategy many resorts now don't give equal value to points purchased resale as they do to points purchased from them or from an authorized reseller.Please tell the next resort that wants you to convert to points that you have fully paid for your week and that you refuse to pay for the right to vacation there a second time. If there are any lawyers here, file a class action suit against them for diminishing the value of timeshares they have sold by making weeks less valuable by selling points that were not even offered in the beginning. I will join your lawsuit gladly, Tom