Weeks to points the new ripoff

[PerryM]

The correct answer is...

''Converting to points'' is nothing but a scam to try to make you buy what you already own all over again. Such flim-flam ought to be vigorously stamped out through legislation or litigation. In many states, it probably already is covered by existing consumer protection laws which are generally very broad. I would at least try making written complaints to both the Real Estate Commission where the timeshare is located and to the Consumer Protection Division of the state Attorney General there.

Good grief; just don’t convert is the correct answer. It’s 100% voluntary to convert and there are developers who just charge the $199 fee that RCI Points charges and nothing else. If your developer/HOA wants thousands of dollars to convert then don’t convert.

I guess if your natural reaction is to sue everyone in sight over everything you don’t like then getting involved with a bunch of lawyers is the only way to solve every problem.

I’m guessing most folks would just go on and find an alternative or just not fight. I don’t remember a single lawsuit over this and thus most folks still have some common sense left.

 

[Carolinian]

Good grief; just don’t convert is the correct answer. It’s 100% voluntary to convert and there are developers who just charge the $199 fee that RCI Points charges and nothing else. If your developer/HOA wants thousands of dollars to convert then don’t convert.

I guess if your natural reaction is to sue everyone in sight over everything you don’t like then getting involved with a bunch of lawyers is the only way to solve every problem.

I’m guessing most folks would just go on and find an alternative or just not fight. I don’t remember a single lawsuit over this and thus most folks still have some common sense left.

You don't seem to get the whole conversion to points scam. The developer will manipulate the system to make those who refuse to pony up the extortion fee to ''convert'' second class members compared to those who have knuckled under. This is the ripoff that needs to be stopped dead in its tracks.

Read the first post in this thread. The problem is clearly spelled out there.

''Just not converting'' is burying your head in the sand while getting hosed by a greedy and dishonest developer.

Of course, I have made it a policy to never buy at a resort that is still under developer control, or at one where the HOA is under the thumb of a management company. With an independent HOA board in control, you tend to avoid these problems.

 

[PerryM]

The HOA has spoken...

You don't seem to get the whole conversion to points scam. The developer will manipulate the system to make those who refuse to pony up the extortion fee to ''convert'' second class members compared to those who have knuckled under. This is the ripoff that needs to be stopped dead in its tracks.

Read the first post in this thread. The problem is clearly spelled out there.

''Just not converting'' is burying your head in the sand while getting hosed by a greedy and dishonest developer.

Of course, I have made it a policy to never buy at a resort that is still under developer control, or at one where the HOA is under the thumb of a management company. With an independent HOA board in control, you tend to avoid these problems.

Sounds like the HOA has decided in this matter - join, leave, or find a "work-around". I'm not sure, from reading the other posts, that what the OP believes is 100% correct.

But if the HOA makes rules we must follow them or sell our units - that's how it works. Running to lawyers to address these problems is just a waste of time.

Just move on is still the correct answer. This is just an asset that can be sold and those funds plowed back into something more palatable. The OP is doing the right thing - asking if what he believes is correct and then must make a decision.

Remember we bought our timeshares to enjoy them and not get caught up in consumer activism.

HOA's and developers are constantly changing the rules at resorts, understand them and then make the appropriate decision and enjoy your vacation is always the correct answer.

 

[Carolinian]

Sounds like the HOA has decided in this matter - join, leave, or find a "work-around". I'm not sure, from reading the other posts, that what the OP believes is 100% correct.

But if the HOA makes rules we must follow them or sell our units - that's how it works. Running to lawyers to address these problems is just a waste of time.

Just move on is still the correct answer. This is just an asset that can be sold and those funds plowed back into something more palatable. The OP is doing the right thing - asking if what he believes is correct and then must make a decision.

Remember we bought our timeshares to enjoy them and not get caught up in consumer activism.

HOA's and developers are constantly changing the rules at resorts, understand them and then make the appropriate decision and enjoy your vacation is always the correct answer.

Perry, you obliviously don't see the spirit of those who own to use. Many have established friendships with others who own that week. It is part of their life to go to their timeshare on their appointed week every year. It is far more than ''just an asset''. Some of the more outspoken folks here seem to forget that exchangers are a distinct minority at many resorts.

I guess you must be a different breed that many owners on the OBX, who have from time to time organized and ousted developers, management companies, and occaisionally an out-of-touch HOA board. One concerned owners group, at Dunes South, even carried their fight all the way to the state Supreme Court, beating the developer at every turn. That caused the same developer to wave a white flag at Ocean Villas II where another concerned owners group had hired a lawyer and was gearing up to take him to court. Members who own to use are usually the backbone of such fights to make things right.

Wimping out make work for some, but for many of us it is just not our cup of tea.

 

[PerryM]

Perry, you obliviously don't see the spirit of those who own to use. Many have established friendships with others who own that week. It is part of their life to go to their timeshare on their appointed week every year. It is far more than ''just an asset''. Some of the more outspoken folks here seem to forget that exchangers are a distinct minority at many resorts.

I guess you must be a different breed that many owners on the OBX, who have from time to time organized and ousted developers, management companies, and occaisionally an out-of-touch HOA board. One concerned owners group, at Dunes South, even carried their fight all the way to the state Supreme Court, beating the developer at every turn. That caused the same developer to wave a white flag at Ocean Villas II where another concerned owners group had hired a lawyer and was gearing up to take him to court. Members who own to use are usually the backbone of such fights to make things right.

Wimping out make work for some, but for many of us it is just not our cup of tea.

Like it or not we are bound by the documents we sign. The HOA is the controlling entity over a timeshare and speaks for the owners. If the HOA wants RCI Points then it will be done.

Those that don't want to follow the rules I guess chart another course and fight those rules for their own selfish motives since the HOA speaks for the owners.

 

[e.bram]

I own inn a sold out TS where the management was take over by Fairfield and the HOA apparently has let the TS to become a part of the FF point system. Every visit I am invited to a "owners update"(yes, I like thew frrebie)and am offered the opportunity to conver to FF points. Initially it was done by requiring me to buy points in some FF TS in the boondocks. Since Wyndham has taken over they are offering direct conversion for about $3000.00.
My problem is this, since the week in question is a floating week which contains blue and white weeks(some really bad) where before points I was competing with other TS owners now I compete with FF as well. Since FF is sitting at the reservation keyboard the can lock the best weeks the second the reservation becomes available leaving me with only the worst weeks. This is clearly on conflict of interest.
Right now this has not happened yet. But if it does I will stop paying the MF. If the HOA sues for the money I will use the conflict of interest of the managment company as a defense. The TS has no value and can be purchased on Ebay for a dollar, in some cases the closing costs paid by the seller.
However some of the floating weeks are not at that bad a time and I enjoy going. In fact I rented a unit from SkyAuction for $200.00, wher my MF is $640.00.

 

[PerryM]

I own inn a sold out TS where the management was take over by Fairfield and the HOA apparently has let the TS to become a part of the FF point system. Every visit I am invited to a "owners update"(yes, I like thew frrebie)and am offered the opportunity to conver to FF points. Initially it was done by requiring me to buy points in some FF TS in the boondocks. Since Wyndham has taken over they are offering direct conversion for about $3000.00.
My problem is this, since the week in question is a floating week which contains blue and white weeks(some really bad) where before points I was competing with other TS owners now I compete with FF as well. Since FF is sitting at the reservation keyboard the can lock the best weeks the second the reservation becomes available leaving me with only the worst weeks. This is clearly on conflict of interest.
Right now this has not happened yet. But if it does I will stop paying the MF. If the HOA sues for the money I will use the conflict of interest of the managment company as a defense. The TS has no value and can be purchased on Ebay for a dollar, in some cases the closing costs paid by the seller.
However some of the floating weeks are not at that bad a time and I enjoy going. In fact I rented a unit from SkyAuction for $200.00, wher my MF is $640.00.

How is this any different than what the politicians did to us a few years ago - retroactively went back and added new taxes that some of us were forced to pay.

Rules are meant to be changed and often are. The HOA, in this case, spoke for the owners and took Wyndham (FF) up on their offer. Not everyone is going to be a winner.

Do the best you can and if necessary sell it.

Tomorrow there will be more changes - we need to reevaluate what we own and make decisions as an ongoing activity.

Don't count on politicians and Attorney Generals to do anything. Timeshares are owned by affluent people (Who really needs a timeshare?) And have a very low priority. The folks on a jury have no sympathy for folks like us who have so much money that we can afford a luxury like a timeshare.

 

[Jed]

Tomorrow there will be more changes - we need to reevaluate what we own and make decisions as an ongoing activity.

All the more reason not to convert (speaking for myself).

 

[Carolinian]

Like it or not we are bound by the documents we sign. The HOA is the controlling entity over a timeshare and speaks for the owners. If the HOA wants RCI Points then it will be done.

Those that don't want to follow the rules I guess chart another course and fight those rules for their own selfish motives since the HOA speaks for the owners.

An HOA board that is either developer controlled or under the thumb of a management company is NOT speaking for the owners, but for the entity that controls it.

An owner controlled timeshare HOA will not usually try to make such a sweeping change without owner input, probably by a vote at the annual meeting.

If this is not currently an owner controlled HOA, it is time to start the revolution to make it so. Owners (before my ownership) had organized and booted the developer out of control of two of the SA timeshares I have owned at and at three of the Outer Banks timeshares I have owned at.

If the HOA IS owner controlled and they have so arrogantly abused their authority, it is time for a concerned owners group to run for the board to return it to a body that is responsive to owners.

 

[Carolinian]

In most cases the Declaration of Covenants is very difficult to practically impossible to change, and probably hasn't been. If these new ''rules'' are in conflict with that, and they well may be, the Declaration will govern if the matter gets to court.

unFairfield, now know as Wyndham, is an arrogant, overbearing, abusive bunch (see the Bluebeards Castle saga) and I would run, not walk, away from any resort they manage.

How is this any different than what the politicians did to us a few years ago - retroactively went back and added new taxes that some of us were forced to pay.

Rules are meant to be changed and often are. The HOA, in this case, spoke for the owners and took Wyndham (FF) up on their offer. Not everyone is going to be a winner.

Do the best you can and if necessary sell it.

Tomorrow there will be more changes - we need to reevaluate what we own and make decisions as an ongoing activity.

Don't count on politicians and Attorney Generals to do anything. Timeshares are owned by affluent people (Who really needs a timeshare?) And have a very low priority. The folks on a jury have no sympathy for folks like us who have so much money that we can afford a luxury like a timeshare.

 

[PerryM]

An HOA board that is either developer controlled or under the thumb of a management company is NOT speaking for the owners, but for the entity that controls it.

An owner controlled timeshare HOA will not usually try to make such a sweeping change without owner input, probably by a vote at the annual meeting.

If this is not currently an owner controlled HOA, it is time to start the revolution to make it so. Owners (before my ownership) had organized and booted the developer out of control of two of the SA timeshares I have owned at and at three of the Outer Banks timeshares I have owned at.

If the HOA IS owner controlled and they have so arrogantly abused their authority, it is time for a concerned owners group to run for the board to return it to a body that is responsive to owners.

If the developer has inventory they are entitled to voting rights just like other owners. Although the developer may not technically be an owner they pay MFs and deposit units into exchange companies and rent units to prospective buyers.

There is no reason under the sun to not let them vote and guide the resort - that would be unfair.

 

[e.bram]

Perry:
But if the mangement company control of the HOA is a result of their ownership then they are barred form acting in a way that favors their position at the expense of the other owners is clearly a conflict of interest and illegal.
As to politicians some do the same thing but they do get caught. Look at the hedline for NEW Jersey today.
Wyndham and others will have to pay the piper one day. The best defense against the managment is to own a fixed week where the ability to make reservations ahead of everyone else does not help them. With points and floating weeks you have not protection as of now.

 

[PerryM]

Hating your toaster is much the same...

Perry:
But if the mangement company control of the HOA is a result of their ownership then they are barred form acting in a way that favors their position at the expense of the other owners is clearly a conflict of interest and illegal.
As to politicians some do the same thing but they do get caught. Look at the hedline for NEW Jersey today.
Wyndham and others will have to pay the piper one day. The best defense against the managment is to own a fixed week where the ability to make reservations ahead of everyone else does not help them. With points and floating weeks you have not protection as of now.

The only thing you can do to a corporation is to hate it.

Anything else, like taxes, court judgements, or fines, are simply passed on the consumer to be paid. Legal actions against corporate officers do impact those folks but never touch the corporation.

So hate the corporations all you want, however they have all the feelings of a toaster when it burns your bagel.

This is why I have suspicions about intelligent folks hell bent on hurting a corporation (Hello RCI) - they know there is nothing there to hurt/insult and that money is more than likely the reason for all the fuss.

 

[e.bram]

Perry:
You are wrong!
Take a course in paralegal in a community college or read a book on legal procedure. In a small case the corp still has to higher a lawyer(big bucks for them). You can represent yourself(free). They will usually settle w/o going to court and in court you have good shot too. The judges usually side with the consumer against a business.

 

[tombo]

Perry espouses all of the values that makes Wyndham, Escapes, and all of the other rip-off timeshare corporations powerful. If they mistreat you, put up with it or just walk away. If they diminish the value of a week in a resort in which you are an owner, it is just a part of life, live with it or sell. If a big corporation trounces on something you own to make a larger corporate profit, there is nothing you can do, so surrender and sulk off into the sunset.

America was built on the backs of fighters. We have laws and rights which the courts enforce to protect the individual from corporate greed. How many salesman have been arrested? I don't know but a couple of good 60 Minutes or 20/20 investigations would probably send some to jail. We have all been to presentations where we know we are being lied to. I know more about timeshares than the far majority of timeshare salesmen. I am courteous, try not to laugh or cry bull____ at their outright lies, then I leave with my gift. The only way they go to jail is if someone record's the lies in a presentation or gets some hard proof and then PROSECUTES THEM! You have to buy and be damaged to prosecute. Those of us who know they are lying don't buy, those who don't know better buy and it is too late to prosecute because later it is their word against the resort's word. If people start recording and prosecuting we could force the developers to stop the deceptive practices by the only thing they care about, by getting into their wallets. If it starts costing them money they will change their tactics.

If you instead decide to follow Perry's advice then you don't fight no matter what happens to you. If they want to re-zone your neighborhood, let them. If your company refuses to pay you for overtime or they won't compensate you as they agreed to pay you when you were hired you must live with it or quit. If your HOA decides to side with points in an alliance which diminishes the value of what you own, too bad for you, sell.

I might lose the fight, but I will fight it. It is not in me to simply say they are screwing me but it isn't worth fighting. Reality is that things at your resort won't ever change unless the owners allow the HOA or Developer to change them. In the future I will only buy fixed weeks and I will avoid resorts which have developers in the HOA. But now I will fight to save the value in what I own. It is far better to fight and lose than to look in the mirror and see a quitter looking back at you!

 

[PerryM]

Show me the beef!

Perry espouses all of the values that makes Wyndham, Escapes, and all of the other rip-off timeshare corporations powerful. If they mistreat you, put up with it or just walk away. If they diminish the value of a week in a resort in which you are an owner, it is just a part of life, live with it or sell. If a big corporation trounces on something you own to make a larger corporate profit, there is nothing you can do, so surrender and sulk off into the sunset.

America was built on the backs of fighters. We have laws and rights which the courts enforce to protect the individual from corporate greed. How many salesman have been arrested? I don't know but a couple of good 60 Minutes or 20/20 investigations would probably send some to jail. We have all been to presentations where we know we are being lied to. I know more about timeshares than the far majority of timeshare salesmen. I am courteous, try not to laugh or cry bull____ at their outright lies, then I leave with my gift. The only way they go to jail is if someone record's the lies in a presentation or gets some hard proof and then PROSECUTES THEM! You have to buy and be damaged to prosecute. Those of us who know they are lying don't buy, those who don't know better buy and it is too late to prosecute because later it is their word against the resort's word. If people start recording and prosecuting we could force the developers to stop the deceptive practices by the only thing they care about, by getting into their wallets. If it starts costing them money they will change their tactics.

If you instead decide to follow Perry's advice then you don't fight no matter what happens to you. If they want to re-zone your neighborhood, let them. If your company refuses to pay you for overtime or they won't compensate you as they agreed to pay you when you were hired you must live with it or quit. If your HOA decides to side with points in an alliance which diminishes the value of what you own, too bad for you, sell.

I might lose the fight, but I will fight it. It is not in me to simply say they are screwing me but it isn't worth fighting. Reality is that things at your resort won't ever change unless the owners allow the HOA or Developer to change them. In the future I will only buy fixed weeks and I will avoid resorts which have developers in the HOA. But now I will fight to save the value in what I own. It is far better to fight and lose than to look in the mirror and see a quitter looking back at you!

Ok, let’s all admit it there are NO examples of even ONE timeshare salesrep being prosecuted for lying to a consumer. Can we all agree on this. It’s a big country and maybe there is some guy somewhere but I’ve never come across a single case in 8 years of timeshare ownership.

Since we have no evidence that this is happening we have to give the benefit of the doubt to the folks who do this day in and day out all year long – the salesreps. I know, they are an easy target for “Bigfoot sightings” of lies and deceptions but they are either super smart and avoid being caught or much of the problem is that timeshares are complex to understand and the information a salesrep used 3 months ago may be stale and inaccurate. This they are guilty of.

Add to that most timeshare salesreps don’t own a timeshare and we have the salesrep going on second hand information and experiences passed around the office. This they are guilty of too.

But to then say we must now call upon lawyers to save us and courts that get over turned all the time seems to me to be an even worse choice. (As an aside - just how accurate are the courts? I've never seen a figure but overall my guess is 75% accuracy at best)

Timeshares have been around 40+ years and the 60 minute type of reporters have had ample time to set their sights on the timeshare industry but haven’t probably says that they don’t get inundated with Ma and Pa crying to help them.

There is no excuse anymore for Ma and Pa to get stung; not with Google and many timeshare chat rooms. It’s time Ma and Pa acted like adults and assume personal responsibility for any mess they are in.

I am NOT saying that the timeshare salesreps are 100% free from lying, deceit, and scams, I am saying that Ma and Pa now have the tools to help them do due diligence and rescind that sales contract. If Ma and Pa are too lazy, too busy, or too ignorant to do a little research they will accept that sales contract and be bound by it.

TUG is doing the work that the Drive By Media used to do – we don’t need a 60 minute hit piece against the timeshare industry to become a resource for Ma and Pa.


Just as there are no verdicts against RCI nor prosecutors pursuing them, this topic of Ma and Pa being snookered by the salesreps is completely void of any evidence that has made it into a court room. It has as much validity as alligators in the sewer eating people.

I have no doubt folks can come up with all kinds of stories of being lied to, however they never felt it important enough to then call the authorities - so what should we do?

The real problem here is that Ma and Pa never did due diligence in the first place and now they want a bail out program. This sounds very familiar.

Conclusion:
Don't count on big brother bailing you out - do the due diligence in the first place.

 

[e.bram]

tombo:
AMEN

 

[Carolinian]

If the developer has inventory they are entitled to voting rights just like other owners. Although the developer may not technically be an owner they pay MFs and deposit units into exchange companies and rent units to prospective buyers.

There is no reason under the sun to not let them vote and guide the resort - that would be unfair.

Too many developers try to hang on long after their ownership is in the minority. Powhattan Plantation is one sad example of that. On the OBX, two developers tried to overstay their welcome. First Flight Builders was booted out of control of the four resorts they built after an owners group at one of their resorts cleaned their clock at the state Supreme Court and two others were gearing up for legal action. At all of their resorts they were compelled to deed over upsold weeks and in one case to pay $100,000 cash. The other, Barrier Island Station, continues to get away with controlling HOA's at two long sold out resorts.

On the OBX, it is only developer controlled HOA's that have embraced points, not the owner-controlled HOA's. IMHO, the reason is obvious. Owners are not clamouring for points; developers are!

 

[Carolinian]

The only thing you can do to a corporation is to hate it.

Anything else, like taxes, court judgements, or fines, are simply passed on the consumer to be paid. Legal actions against corporate officers do impact those folks but never touch the corporation.

So hate the corporations all you want, however they have all the feelings of a toaster when it burns your bagel.

This is why I have suspicions about intelligent folks hell bent on hurting a corporation (Hello RCI) - they know there is nothing there to hurt/insult and that money is more than likely the reason for all the fuss.

You can force a corporation to do right. The method is called injunctive relief. Then the corporate officers can decide if they prefer to do what the court tells them to do or whether they would rather go to jail for contempt.

 

[Carolinian]

Perry's straw man

Set up a straw man, knock it down . . . This seems to be a common technique of those who regularly defend the big boys in the timeshare industry.

Of course, there is not going to be a timeshare salesman prosecuted for lying to a buyer. First, any such action is likely to be in civil court, not criminal court, and secondly, anyone in their right mind would not go after the agent, the salesman, but the principle with deep pockets, the developer.

Are developers and management companies called to account in our legal system when they do wrong? Absolutely!

In my own area, on the Outer Banks there are plenty of examples. Dunes South concerned owners took their developer, First Flight Builders, through the courts, all the way to the state Supreme Court, beating them at every turn and gained control of the resort, and HOA ownership of all unsold developer weeks. First Flight Builders then settled with another concerned owners group at Ocean Villas II which had hired a lawyer and was preparing their own case, turning over control of the resort, ownership of all unsold developer weeks, and $100,000 cash. First Flight then also settled with the concerned owners group at Ocean Villas I which had organized and raised money and was at the stage of consulting with lawyers, turning over control of the resort and ownership of all unsold developer weeks. They also waved a white flag at Hatteras High but I have heard two versions of the details there. At Bodie Island Beach Club, a concerned owners group filed a complaint with the state Real Estate Commission against the Subsequent Developer (who had bought out the interests of the original developer), which led, after an extensive investigation by the Commission, to the owners gaining control of the resort and some cash and the subsequent developer losing his real estate license. More recently, at Sea Ranch II, litigation in the courts, led to a consent order in which the management company, VRI, was compelled to relinquish their management contract.